POTUS Weighs in on Harvard Prof Arrest

[Praetorian]

Henry Gates is my new hero as he has single handedly brought Obamacare to a grinding halt.

[Guy]

If they release the "audio" tapes.......

Stay safe.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Defender968

First I have no idea what the GOPs performance has to do with the price of tea in China or with this conversation. Second and more importantly Sigaba I don't have a problem with academics at large, as a matter of fact I don't even have a problem with you or anyone else taking Gates side as long as you can support your arguments with facts and experience, you have that right, but in this case you didn't appear to have either, simply a loyalty to Gates for whatever reason and a bias against LEOs again for whatever reason.

Further my hostility is not because you are an academic as much as the fact that as an academic you presume to analyze my statements while inserting your own bias in your interpretation of them in an effort to make a point when you do not appear to have a grasp on either the facts or the situation on anything other than a very, very basic and yes purely academic level. This type of behavior smacks of the type of arogant thinking that I do dislike in academia or anywhere else for that matter, specifically I've seen it in academia when and you know those guys, the ones who insist on being called "Doctor" who think they know it all because they have a PHD, well that doesn’t fly with me, didn’t when I was in college, and won’t now.

Also your hostility towards LEOs is your business, you proabably had a bad experience with a LEO, it happens, there are people in every field, but it appears to me that due to your negative experience you dismiss the skills and experiences that one gains as a LEO in favor of your own intellect, and frankly that kind of behavior will draw fire from me every time. Sigaba, you're a smart guy and I mean that in all sincerity, but your intellect does not mean you know how people think nor that you know all things in other fields, nor does your intellect mean that you automatically understand all situations. A keen intellect is a very poor substitute for real world experience/understanding in these types of matters IMO.

Defender968--

This is not the first time you've alleged that I have a lack of "real world experience" to evaluate either your comments or the facts of Professor Gates's arrest or, for that matter, my own experiences with LEOs. Conversely, you contend that your experiences as a law enforcement officer provide you a more credible insight into the state of mind of people whom you've never met because they happen to remind you of events you've experienced.

On these four issues I reckon we shall have to agree to disagree.

In regards to your comments of my view towards LEOs in general, I do not believe that my comments on this thread support your interpretation.

As for the numerous aspersions you've cast towards me in this thread, I would like to voice my umbrage: I do not watch CSI or either of its two spin-offs. Those time slots are for watching a certain show about nothing.

Originally Posted by abc_123

All I know is that Sigba is making my temples hurt reading this thread. I may have to revert to the "mean dog" avatar because of it.

This "professor" is a leach and makes his living not off of bringing the races together...but making sure that the diffferences are highlighted. If he was white, he would be censured for embarrassing the college (well, maybe not Haaaarvard, but most others....) He is gaining huge benefit...publicity.. which will translate into full classrooms of students ... and more "power" within the institution.

The cops should have put a stick to his ass....simply for being stupid. No officer deserves to be subjected to the accusations of racisim that professor jackass was spewing.

Message received.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The president has invited both Professor Gates and SGT Crowley to come to the White House. My hope is that the president goes beyond his favorite topic (himself) and allows Professor Gates and Sgt. Crowley to have an opportunity to show the nation a thing or two.

It's just a photo op for "the one", that's all it is.

[Praetorian]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

You really touched on something there. fox news has an article about how the big O may have stepped in it this time.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...controversies/

Exactly.... He holds a prime time press conference, with the SOLE PURPOSE of jump-starting his health care plan which had lost all momentum and was quickly losing public support, and the ONLY THING ANYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT AFTER IT, is "GATESGATE."

Add to that Gates is yet another example of one of Obama's "friends" who has a colossal chip on his shoulder and openly reverse-racist ideas, this has not been a good week for the One. America thought they were electing Denzel Washington- the cool, calm, post racial American who happens to be of color, but we're waking up to the fact that we ended up with Al Sharpton in disguise.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Defender968--
Conversely, you contend that your experiences as a law enforcement officer provide you a more credible insight into the state of mind of people whom you've never met because they happen to remind you of events you've experienced.

Am attempting to stick with the topic of this thread, in that;

A. A Law Enforcement Officer has been called stupid by the current CIC. AND

B. Said "victim" of police intolerance teaches a class, on "racial" issues???

Even I, as a simple non-academic-smart person, can see where this is going.
Is there really any question to the Officers conduct? Or is this, "kum-bye-a" singing get-togethar at the White House just an attempt to put icing on a cake of drama started by the rediculous statemnt from Our Potus? Our Potus!!

If remembering correctly, the POTUS did NOT comment on the "Border Patrol Agents" case, and their trial, for said reson!!!

Holly

[Saoirse]

I think everyone has made a lot of valid points on this issue. And IMVHO, I think we are all influenced in our points by our own experiences to a certain extent. We are only human!
I am a former LEO and have dealt with the "race card" being thrown into my face on numerous occasions. And while as a rookie, I was deeply offended that somebody would call me a racist, I learned very quickly that, no matter the race, anyone being arrested is going to use whatever "card" they can to change the issue around in their favor somehow, ie the criminal trying to look like the victim.
Did P.O. Crowley overreact? I don't believe so. After what I have read and heard on the news, there was a small crowd gathering..a bunch of lookie-loos. It could have escalated into something much worse with the increased ire and rant of the professor.
Did Prof Gates overreact? I believe he did. If I were in his position, I would be pretty happy that the police (regardless of their race) responded to a burglary in progress at my home. The officer was well within his right to ask for identification and to check out the situation. For all he knew, that could have been an OLD ID and this guy didn't live there anymore. Better to be safe than sorry, discretion being the better part of valor! What many people fail to realize is that law enforcement can be a very thankless job. We only want a cop when we want one....and many complain, "there is NEVER a cop when you need one!" Nobody is ever happy.
Cops, for the most part are overworked, underpaid and are in high stressful situations for most of their day. But they are only human....and sometimes, unless their actions are highly egregious (which is not the case in this situation), they need to be given a break!!! It is easy for the average citizen, academia and politician to judge then.... "walk a mile in my shoes!".

As far as The Anointed One speaking on this.....without a telerprompter, he should be quiet on issues that the populace is quite capable of handling on their own. Moreover, he should hold his tongue on this issue because the professor is his "personal" friend, as I have heard. The news needs to put it to bed unless more arises from this...they are feeding the feeding frenzy and it will become a "race" issue and we all know how some POS's love to sink their teeth into that!

I'm not rantin' against anyone on this thread or their opinions...I'm just sayin'.
Have a great weekend!
Saoirse

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

A smart man and good citizen has a bad day. He does something stupid. He blows a gasket, and gets hauled off to the pokey. To some, that makes him a suitable target for any and every piece of invective that folks decide to toss at him. Where is all of this rage coming from?

You pose a good question here, Sig. I don't have an answer, but rather a counter-question--if the officer was the one having a bad day, and at Prof. Gates' initial greeting had shouted "Shut the f* up, n*, and put your f*in' hands where I can see them!" and was overheard by others outside, from where would the inevitably resulting "rage" in the AA community originate? What variety of invectives would be thrown at the officer, for being verbally hostile and using a racial slur, but not physically abusive? I wonder what Michael Richards would say about being the target of rage and invectives?

[LarryW]

INHO, some day, some how America is going to come to terms with race. All the "advances" to date (MLK, civil rights, et al) have danced around the real issue. And, no, I'm not smart enough to know what that issue is. I only know we ain't there yet. This whole blow up is an example. On top of that, our POTUS is trying to push a rope. IMHO.

[Pete]

Why didn't 911 caller recognize Gates in broad daylight?

Works at Harvard office just doors from well-known professor

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104941

".....Whalen, it turns out, works as circulation and fundraising manager at the Harvard Magazine. The publication's offices are located a few doors from Gates' home......"

When I first looked at the title I thought they worked in the same building and would have walked back and forth past each other in their daily working.

Again - very little in the way of true investigation here by the reporters. What happened to the other witnesses? Does the 911 caller and Gates do their own yard work, do they walk to work, what time do they go to work?

I'm just wondering if they will try and rake the 911 caller into the racist camp.

[The Reaper]

What is the POTUS trying to do?

Punish the innocent and reward bad behavior, of course.

Act inappropriately and be verbally abusive, then call the individual doing his duty a racist. I wrote this referring to Professor Gates, but it occurs to me that this includes the POTUS as well.

I predict as the witness statements and radio transmissions are released, this will not look good for the professor, or the POTUS.

Is the Teflon starting to wear off yet?

TR

[blue02hd]

[QUOTE=Sigaba;275431]An acronym for "Grand Old Party" and "Gallant Old Party" source is here.

Thank you Mr. Sig, I am fully aware of the meaning of "GOP". I was just curious why you would throw this in the mix. I have been following this thread quite closely. Just seems the waters are pretty damn muddy for what is a clear case of immaturity on Mr. Gates behalf. My opinion is formed, and my Criminal Justice degree provides support to what Defender has been saying.

When the cops ask for ID, stfu and provide it, unless of course you are above the law.

Just my .02. Not sure what the thought deficient GOP would say,,,,

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by blue02hd

Thank you Mr. Sig, I am fully aware of the meaning of "GOP". I was just curious why you would throw this in the mix. I have been following this thread quite closely. Just seems the waters are pretty damn muddy for what is a clear case of immaturity on Mr. Gates behalf. My opinion is formed, and my Criminal Justice degree provides support to what Defender has been saying.

When the cops ask for ID, stfu and provide it, unless of course you are above the law.

Just my .02. Not sure what the thought deficient GOP would say,,,,

Blue02hd--

With respect, I did not say that the GOP is "thought deficient." I wrote:

Right now, the GOP is under-performing--badly--in the marketplace of ideas.

While I appreciate the irony, I aver that the two statements are distinctly different. By my statement, I meant that the GOP is losing arguments that it could easily (or even should) win.

The president put his feet waist-deep into his mouth and provided his opponents a golden opportunity to undermine his supporters' view of his intelligence, his leadership, his focus, and his commitment to their interests.

Thus far, we've decided to focus more effort on deriding Professor Gates for his meltdown, castigating (yet again) the Ivory Tower, and making the discussion something about race.

This last feature is increasingly ironic. Some of those who argue his arrest had nothing to about race are spending a lot of time talking about race. The question remains: where is all this rage coming from?

Professor Gates behaved immaturely, I agree. Did Sgt Crowley take the high road or did he take the bait? Both men had the power to diffuse the situation. Both men decided to keep ratcheting up the pressure.

Why did Sgt Crowley decide on the course of actions that he took? What is his department's policy on a civilian's RFI for a badge number? How was he trained to handle an irate civilian wearing a size XXL asshat?

And before QP ABC_123 sics his dog on me, my response is here.

[echoes]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Professor Gates behaved immaturely, I agree. Did Sgt Crowley take the high road or did he take the bait? Both men had the power to diffuse the situation. Both men decided to keep ratcheting up the pressure.

Having read all the LEO accounts, my vote is no. BOTH men did NOT keep ratcheting up the pressure. One did. And he was cuffed for it, as any other civilian would have been, IMHO. Is this really still an issue?

Holly

[nmap]

It may well be that I should reflect long and hard on the phrase "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread" before posting. With that in mind, I suppose I shall try to tread lightly.

I think I can understand the dynamics. I have had the opportunity to observe a number of law enforcement officers at various levels over the years. By and large, with exceptions duly noted, they are oriented toward controlling the violator contact - or, for that matter, any situation that relates to their professional activities. I hasten to add that this is not a bad thing; on the contrary, it is a necessary attribute (IMO).

On the other hand, I have also observed the inhabitants of the ivory tower. Senior tenured faculty have a great deal of independence and autonomy. The Department Chair combines considerable power (in terms of influence, control of budgets and promotions, awarding tenure and office space, and persuasion), along with all of the benefits of being tenured faculty. They are used to an environment where no one tells them what to do. Quite possibly, no one has given them a direct order ( for example, a lawful order by a peace officer) in many decades.

So part 1 has a law enforcement officer who makes a legitimate effort to deal with a situation he has good reason to believe is a violator contact. He will attempt to control the contact and sort things out. But Prof. Gates' background has not prepared him for this. From his perception, the LEO is telling him what to do. He will automatically feel resentment and anger. I do not suggest that he should have such a reaction, nor do I suggest it is a wise reaction; but I do contend it will predictably occur. Thus, the very nature of the interaction makes some level of conflict likely (IMHO).

But we have part 2 - which is far more volatile. Prof. Gates focuses on issues of race. He writes about them, directs a program that deals with such matters, and thus we may presume he thinks about it a lot. And Sgt. Crowley also deals with issues of race.

It is, of course, quite dangerous to extrapolate too much from a single University class. With that caution in mind, I took a required course in that area a year ago - during the Fall of 2008. The instructor was pleasant, knew her subject, and treated her students well. There were about 24 or so diverse (mainly young, primarily female) students, mostly at the masters level, with one annoying doctoral student (me). The course, as it developed, took race relations from a back-burner issue to something that caused considerable rancor...even anger...among and between students. I do not think this was the intention of the instructor; rather, it was a side-effect. One Hispanic girl was in tears, one class, as she stated she had always wanted to have blond hair and blue eyes. A young woman from India was badly annoyed that I had stereotyped her when I supposed she was Hindu. Which she was.

I have a suspicion that studying race relations tends to create quite a lot of tension. I have real doubts that they ever go away. However...working together, toward a common (and shared) goal seems to reduce those tensions.

So I suspect that at least Prof. Gates was very sensitive to racial issues. Thus, both perceived social rank and race interacted to produce a problem.

And what of the POTUS? Quite aside from the issue of race, Prof. Gates is an academic - just as the POTUS was for a time. In fact, I seem to recall that the two knew each other previously. And I would pose a rhetorical question - how many non-LEOs understand anything about how a LEO works or conducts contacts? Thus, he made a remark without a full understanding of the facts.

What should Prof. Gates have done? A pleasant, calm, and cooperative demeanor would almost certainly have worked wonders. Besides, one can always go from "nice guy" to "NOT nice guy"; but the opposite is much harder to achieve.

As for the POTUS? I do believe he rushed into a situation....