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Old 04-09-2004, 14:59   #76
Airbornelawyer
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Vietnam is all the rage of armchair QBs of the Democrat/liberal/left variety, and Tet comparisons abound. But perhaps an analogy more on the minds of planners is Jenin. No matter how surgically and carefully the IDF acted, and how, conscious of the collateral damage issue, they exposed their infantry to street fighting rather than simply bombing the hell out of the terrs, Israel still got the negative press and propaganda. I understand the political considerations that appear to underlie this course of events, but I still think we are far more worried about making them like us (an effort which may be in vain) and too little concerned with making them fear us. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but successful counterinsurgencies require a carrot and a big-ass stick.

This is also a legacy of the politics of the invasion, where we were so impressed with the quality of our technologies (and the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines wielding them) to strike surgically and avoid collateral damage, that we seem to have forgotten that the enemy's center of gravity is not his tanks and communications nodes, but his will. We left far too many Iraqis not feeling defeated, and our efforts during the occupation made us look weak in many eyes, and not magnanimous in victory, as we apparently hoped.

Also, because of the politics, especially domestic and international, we deferred on this fight and the one with al-Sadr's militias, until we absolutely had to (i.e., apparently, now). Now that the fight has come, it must be pursued vigorously, or our humanity and magnanimity will just bite us on the ass again.
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Old 04-09-2004, 15:10   #77
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Couldn't have said it better myself AL.

Another consideration is the Holy Week. I would imagine it will go up a notch after the pilgrims go home.
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Old 04-09-2004, 15:21   #78
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"Now that the fight has come, it must be pursued vigorously, or our humanity and magnanimity will just bite us on the ass again."

As a civilian, I can only pray that Our troops have been prepped. As the media would have us believe, it is a "Dooms-Day" waiting to happen. They seem to leave Us with the impression that Our Soldiers are in imminent danger, and nothing can be done?

Respectfully, could I ask if You all had any thoughts about how prepared We are for this insurgence of violence?

Holly
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Old 04-09-2004, 19:29   #79
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Question

Will this Muslim holy week provide a red carpet for terrorists to reinforce? I can imagine at least hundreds of "pilgrims" remaining as fresh fighters. Someone please tell me I'm wrong.
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Old 04-10-2004, 08:06   #80
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Sweetbriar, I am right with you. This is a strange time, and I am fearful for Our brave Soldiers safety.

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Old 04-10-2004, 19:57   #81
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Well strap these comments from the Marines on for size if you are afraid:


"Dear Ladies, the last two days have been the hardest two days this battalion has faced in over 30 years. Within the blink of an eye the situation went form relatively calm to a raging storm. You've known that since arriving there has been violence; attacks have been sporadic and mostly limited to roadside bombs. Your husbands have become experts at recognizing those threats and neutralizing them before we are injured. Up to this point the war has been the purview of corporals and sergeants, and the squad they lead.

Yesterday the enemy upped the ante.

Early in the morning we exchanged gunfire with a group of insurgents without significant loss. As morning progressed, the enemy fed more men into the fight and we responded with stronger force. Unfortunately, this led to injuries as our Marines and sailors started clearing the city block by block. The enemy did not run; they fought us like soldiers. And we destroyed the enemy like only Marines can. By the end of the evening the local hospital was so full of their dead and wounded that they ran out of space to put them. Your husbands were awesome all night they stayed at the job of securing the streets and nobody challenged them as the hours wore on. They did not surrender an inch nor did flinch from the next potential threat. Previous to yesterday the terrorist thought that we were soft enough to challenge. As of tonight the message is loud and clear that the Marines will not be beaten.

Today the enemy started all over again, although with far fewer numbers, only now the rest of the battalion joined the fight. Without elaborating to much, weapons company and Golf crushed their attackers with the vengeance of the righteous. They filled up the hospitals again and we suffered only a few injuries. Echo company dominated the previous day's battlefield. Fox company patrolled with confidence and authority; nobody challenged them. Even Headquarters Company manned their stations and counted far fewer people openly watching us with disdain. If the enemy is foolish enough to try to take your men again they will not survive contact. We are here to win.

The news looks grim from back in the States. We did take losses that, in our hearts, we will always live with. The men we lost were taken within the very opening minutes of the violence. They could not have foreseen the treachery of the enemy and they did not suffer. We can never replace these Marines and Sailors but they will fight on with us in spirit. We are not feeling sorry for ourselves nor do we fear what tomorrow will bring. The battalion has lived up to its reputation as Magnificent Bastards.

Yesterday made everyone here stronger and wiser; it will be a cold day in Hell before we are taken for granted again."

Paul Kennedy and Jim Booker
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Old 04-10-2004, 20:05   #82
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Thank Ya Reaper for passing that on.
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Old 04-10-2004, 20:07   #83
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Thanks for posting that Reaper.

That's my old Battalion.
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Old 04-10-2004, 21:00   #84
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Thumbs up

Thank you for posting that Sir. Our prayers are out, and thanks to Their superb training, I believe They will win the day!

If only more of us here at home could turn off the news, and llisten to those words. I think it could quelch the Fear that the local media is attempting to instill in Americans about our fight!

Stay Strong Brave Soldiers!

Respectfully,
Holly
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Old 04-12-2004, 14:29   #85
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I do not understand why we are pausing. Do we think the lies will stop after a cease fire? This just makes us look weak, it seems to me.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

Cease-Fire Not 100% But Holding, U.S. Says

By Nicholas Riccardi and Tony Perry, Times Staff Writers

FALLOUJA, Iraq — A patchy cease-fire remained in effect in this battle-torn city today as U.S. officials said they were seeking "political" solutions to pacify the area and, elsewhere in the country, disband a militia loyal to a virulently anti-American cleric.

The move to stress negotiations over military action marked a significant tactical shift for American officials here, who until the weekend had been vowing to crush the two insurgencies threatening Iraq's stability.

At a news conference today in Baghdad, U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, said the U.S. decision to suspend fighting has been fragile.

"It's tenuous, and we have over the course of the last two days have continued to take some attacks in there, but we have responded appropriately," Sanchez said. "Today, it seems a little bit better."

But Sanchez added the situation in Fallouja would have to become more stabile for serious talks to occur. "We are not negotiating at this point until we achieve some confidence building and a period of stability; then we would consider going into significant negotiations to end this battle," he said.

Also, a military spokesman said today that 70 U.S. troops have died in Iraq since April 1, when Marines launched their operation to regain control of Fallouja and militiamen loyal to cleric Muqtada Sadr began attacking police posts and government buildings in southern Iraq.

American officials also acknowledged during battles with Sadr's forces that an unspecified number of Iraqi security forces defected to his side, said Army Gen. John Abizaid, who is directing the war in Iraq.

"Clearly we know that some of the police did not stay with their post and that in some cases, because we've seen films of policemen with Sadr's militia in particular, that there were some defections," said Abizaid, who appeared at a news conference with Sanchez. "I think that these numbers are not large, but they are troubling to us."

The insurgents have in recent days used kidnapping as a way to raise attention to their demands. More than two dozen foreigners from at least 12 countries have been taken hostage, but two U.S. troops and seven employees of American contractor Kellogg, Brown & Root were still missing after an attack over the weekend west of Baghdad, Sanchez said.

Insurgents abducted more foreign civilians Sunday, with China's official news agency reporting that seven of its citizens had been taken hostage in central Iraq. Arab television showed a tape of masked men holding eight Indian, Pakistani and Turkish citizens who they said had been caught driving coalition supply trucks, but the gunmen said the captives would be released.

A spokesman for Islamic clerics who appealed for releasing the captives said nine hostages have been let go. The group included two Turks, three Pakistanis, a Nepalese, a Filipino, an Indian; the ninth was unknown, according to a wire report.

"We believe that nine were released last night or today," said Muthanna Harith, a spokesman for the Islamic Clerics Committee. Moreover, the fate of three Japanese civilian hostages remained unknown as the deadline for their release passed without Japan's military withdrawing from Iraq, as the kidnappers demanded.

"We know nothing about the Japanese," Harith said.

. . .

The continuing violence has brought to a virtual halt U.S. reconstruction efforts and work toward the planned June 30 transition to Iraqi sovereignty.

President Bush, visiting soldiers wounded in Iraq at a hospital at Ft. Hood, Texas, appeared somber and said that it had been "a tough week." L. Paul Bremer III, the top U.S. representative in Iraq, called the situation an "ongoing crisis." Asked on a Sunday morning interview show what kind of Iraqi government would take over in July, Bremer said: "That's a good question."

In Baghdad, military officials indicated that concern about public anger over their offensive operations — and fear that further backlash could worsen the situation — had prompted them to reconsider their tactics.

"The most important thing to understand at this point is that the coalition forces have suspended offensive operations. They are permitting the political track and the discussion track to go forward," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt.

In Fallouja, a week of intense fighting tapered off Sunday morning as the cease-fire, brokered overnight by two members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council and local sheiks and clerics, took hold. The lead negotiator, acting council member Hachim Hassani, said late Sunday that the discussions were going well, and the cease-fire was extending into today.

For the moment, the focus was almost entirely on stopping the fighting; there was no talk of what the next steps might be, and it was unclear what terms would be acceptable to both sides. Forces hostile to the U.S. occupation have controlled the city for most of the last year, and a variety of U.S. approaches have failed to co-opt or uproot them.

The difficulty of resolving the Fallouja standoff was evident in the comments of Kimmitt, who said the U.S. was now hoping for "a political track to reestablish legitimate Iraqi control over that city" but added that U.S. troops there would stick to their positions and be ready to resume their offensive if talks failed.

"These are positions the Marines fought for and died for," Kimmitt said. "Those would be very good positions from which the Marines could finish the attack on Fallouja."

Kimmitt declined to say what the U.S. terms were in the negotiations, saying he didn't want to comment while discussions were ongoing.

U.S. officials have in recent days reiterated their demands that they be given custody of those behind the killing and mutilation of four contractors slain in the city 12 days ago, as well as any non-Iraqi fighters who might be attacking U.S. forces. City leaders have asked U.S. troops to withdraw from Fallouja.

Kimmitt said that not all the insurgents had honored the cease-fire, probably because they did not have a centralized organization that could order a halt to attacks. At least two Marines were injured by sniper fire Sunday, and four Iraqis were reported killed, but the city was much quieter than it had been in days.

Kimmitt and Dan Senor, the top spokesman for the U.S. civilian authority that runs Iraq, said they halted their fighting because of complaints from Governing Council members about innocent people getting caught in the cross-fire. Hospital officials in Fallouja have reported more than 600 deaths since Marines surrounded the city late April 4.

In a testy news conference Sunday, Kimmitt said that the widespread Iraqi perception that civilians were being killed indiscriminately in Fallouja by U.S. forces was based on irresponsible and inaccurate reporting by the two most popular Arab-language television channels, Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya.

To Iraqis who were angered by the American actions, he said: "Change the channel The stations that are showing Americans killing women and children are not legitimate news sources."

But many people who have fled Fallouja in recent days have told U.S. news outlets, including The Times, that many noncombatants have been killed in the fighting.

As Sunday's cease-fire brought a measure of calm, Fallouja residents breathed a collective sigh of relief, children ventured into yards for the first time in days and some people who had begun the day trying to flee the city returned.

"It cannot get worse than it has been," resident Abbas Khidhir said. "What we have seen here is very bad We have made concessions in order to stop the violence and save the lives of our women and children."

Meanwhile, Governing Council members were also negotiating to persuade Sadr to disband his militia and surrender to an arrest warrant for allegedly helping kill a rival cleric last year. Last week's clashes between Sadr's gunmen and coalition troops were the first serious fighting between occupation forces and the country's Shiite majority.

On Thursday, Sanchez said a new military operation, Operation Resolute Sword, had been launched to remove Sadr's forces. Now officials at the U.S.-led occupation authority say they were prepared to give negotiators room to maneuver, although terms of any potential agreement remained unclear.

Senor said the coalition was seeking a "peaceful solution" to the standoff with Sadr, whose forces have seized control of at least two southern cities. But if those efforts failed, he said, the coalition would have no choice but to respond to Sadr's militia and Fallouja's unrest with force.

"What's the alternative?" Senor asked. "In all these situations, we have to ask ourselves, what is the risk of not acting? If we do not address these individuals and these organizations now, we will rue the day."

American officials had pledged over the weekend to refrain from military operations to capture Sadr as tens of thousands of Shiite pilgrims flocked to Karbala for a religious holiday.

Sadr remained defiant Sunday, holed up in the holy city of Najaf, where his black-garbed militia members remained in control. "There is no chance that the armies of occupation will reenter Najaf," a Sadr spokesman said. . . .
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Old 04-12-2004, 14:49   #86
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What part of shock and awe is this?

Must have missed the Sitzkreig part of Clausewitz's book.

TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

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Old 04-12-2004, 14:51   #87
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Quote:
Sitzkreig
LOL
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 04-13-2004, 09:49   #88
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IMHO, this latest example of indecisiveness and hesitancy stems ultimately from our refusal to justify the war in terms of our own security. Of course, instead, the primary justification for the war offered was that it was a war of social service - to free the oppressed Iraqi people. The implication was almost that any benefit we would gain was incidental. Especially as the campaign against war gathered momentum in the UN, the moral justification offered was increasingly the plight of the Iraqi people, and how happy they would be once we rid them of Hussein. The cherry on top, of course, was the naming of the Operation as "Iraqi Freedom."

While I agree that this is all only mildly relevant to the conduct of the actual war, the consequences of the decision to de-emphasize our own interests in going to war are now being felt throughout the entire Middle-East.

In the first place, I think the characterization of the war as a selfless act of social service on America's part was responsible for the restrained ROE that we saw during the "combat phase" of the conflict. American forces behind cover taking fire from enemy combatants were they couldn't fire back for fear of hitting civilians became a familiar scene on the evening news. I think it is now clear that the first iteration of a critical message was delivered then, as regime loyalists dragged people out of their houses at gunpoint while America sacrificed our own soldiers to avoid putting Iraqi civilians into danger: of the two antagonists, the more ruthless and dangerous one is not the Americans.

As the combat phase of the operation ended, and the nation-building/counter-insurgency phase began, the consequences of our soft handed approach became clear. Enemy forces in Iraq - be they Islamic militants or regime dead-enders - were having no trouble operating within and among the civilian population. Although for a few months our forces appeared to be gradually rounding up the last troublesome elements, in the wake of the activity of the past few weeks it now appears more likely that we may have only been witnessing a proverbial quiet before the storm, as insurgent leaders planned and coordinated the mass attacks that we now see.

And one reason they have been able to do so is that the average Iraqi is far more afraid of being complicit with the Americans (for fear of reprisals by the insurgents) than he is of being complicit with the insurgents. We now have a country full of ostensible "innocent" civilians, who out of some mixture of general anti-Americanism and pragmatic fear of the insurgents, are providing the insurgents a comfortable medium from which to plan, coordinate, supply, and execute their activities. As far out of control as the situation has become at this point, I don't see any alternative but to seriously change our tone. We must go from being the "nice" guys, to the "tough" guys. The average Iraqi should be so afraid of American reprisals, that he is willing to do everything within his power to disassociate himself from the insurgents. At this point, the insurgents have taught us a lesson that we should never have overlooked: the way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people is by convincing them that you are the most dangerous group in the country.

At the macro level, this insistence that we are doing this only for the Iraqis has forced us to let them dictate certain terms of the post-war transition, such as the June 30th handover of power that everyone knows is ridiculous. So it is that this week, as the insurgents made a coordinated move around the country, we found ourselves in a crisis. The governing council, which must be kept intact if there is any hope of seeing the promised June 30th transition take effect, threatened to walk out unless our forces ceased offensive operations against Fallujah and allowed them to negotiate with the insurgent forces there. We allowed the same strategy to be forced on us with Moqtada al Sadr and his militia, and it now appears that we are willing to forgive this very dangerous individual if he will agree to "renounce violence." I think the connection between our obsession with appearing to be the Iraqi's social servants and the June 30th deadline, and the connection between that deadline and the "sitzkreig" policy of negotiations that The Reaper referred to, is all too clear.

All of this looks as weak-kneed and indecisive to the people of Iraq as it does to us here in America. They are starting to see that for all our tanks, Apaches, troops and fighter-bombers, we are no match for the unbridled brutality and ruthlessness of our enemies. Constrained by our own so-called "sensibilities" and a mawkish yearning to have the approval of the world, we are losing control of a situation that is well within our power to control. The Iraqi people, who have shown us nothing if not their willingness to submit to whichever authority is most ruthless, are seeing this picture clearly. And they are hearing it in their mosques: "the Americans will be gone someday, probably sooner that later, and we will still be here," is the message from behind the sinister smile.

The other day at a going away party for RAT (of SOCNET infamy), I had the opportunity to speak at some length with an American, originally from Jordan, who is now working as an interpreter with 5th and 10th SFG forces in Iraq. He had interesting comments that I believe are true and are certainly consistent with what one sees on the news. "The Iraqis," he said, "do not yet know how to be free. After so many decades, they still cannot get out of the mindset that they need to be led, and they need a strong leader. They are used to obeying those of whom they are afraid. We cannot win, until they fear us first. Then we can teach them to be free." I think there is great wisdom in that statement. We have used the carrot until is has been rammed back down our throats. When we have picked up the stick, as it we did recently in Fallujah, it was with a quivering hand and we quickly dropped it in favor of the carrot again. Our enemies on the other hand, have the stick. The population fears them, and it is becoming very obvious that this is not a population possessed of the kind of defiant individualism and independence to recoil against those who would wield sticks against them.

It is an unfortunate consequence of the situation, but in Iraq today we have to become as brutal as the insurgents until they are beaten down and ultimately submit. Then, and only then IMO, can we start talking again about offering the carrot.
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Old 04-13-2004, 10:07   #89
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Agreed. Good post bro.
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Old 04-13-2004, 10:19   #90
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....after re-reading that I realize I didn't bring my argument full circle.

Speaking metaphorically, the only way we are going to justify picking up the stick as against the carrot is by reference to the fact that our primary interest in being there is not the happiness of Iraqis, but the stability of the region for the purpose of making life safe for Americans. To be successful, we must ultimately do this as part of a strategy of wider confrontation with other hostile regimes in the region - Iran foremost among them, but we must do this first to reassert ourselved in Iraq where our forces are now engaged.

As long as we continue to emphasize Iraqi happiness as our guiding principle, we cannot defend a forceful policy of the type needed. We need to rethink our entire orientation in this conflict in the direction of justifying it in terms of our own interests - which we shouldn't be embarrassed to assert - and on that principle we can formulate and execute an effective strategy for bringing Iraq under control and ultimately towards a stable, free future.
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