Are we at war with Islam?

[x-factor]

Morality defined not by action but by membership in a group is one of the hallmarks of facism.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by x-factor

Morality defined not by action but by membership in a group is one of the hallmarks of facism.

Good one.

TR

[sg1987]

Originally Posted by x-factor

Morality defined not by action but by membership in a group is one of the hallmarks of facism.

It would appear that membership in this group has done serious damage to their definition of morality….



POLL: ONE IN FOUR U.S. MUSLIMS OK WITH HOMICIDE BOMBINGS AGAINST INNOCENT CIVILIANS

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274934,00.html

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by sg1987

POLL: ONE IN FOUR U.S. MUSLIMS OK WITH HOMICIDE BOMBINGS AGAINST INNOCENT CIVILIANS

That's a very serious stat...

[afchic]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

That's a very serious stat...

I heard someone on the news yesterday saying that we were looking at the data in the wrong way. Instead of seeing it as 25% of American Muslims agreeing with this tactic, we should instead be focused on the 75% that don't approve.

I agree that 75% is a great number, but when you look at the number of Muslims in the US, 25% comes out to almost 200,000. That is a scary number. What if those 200K decide they are going to walk into the local shopping mall and make themselves a martyr?

[The Reaper]

Hey, I thought torture was keeping people up late, taking embarrassing pictures of them, not letting them wear scented deodorant, that sort of thing.

What do we call this, and the people who condone it? Is this something that your friends and neighbors do for you?

TR

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html

Al Qaeda 'Torture Handbook'
Thursday , May 24, 2007

Al Qaeda terrorists use blow torches, electric drills and meat cleavers to torture and force information out of their victims, according to a "how-to" book discovered in a terrorist safe house in Iraq.

The Defense Department recently released disturbing images and cartoons showing how to torture a captive found by American forces during a raid on a Al Qaeda safe house a few weeks ago. They also found photos of tortured Iraqi victims.

The book guides followers of Al Qaeda how to interrogate and torture captives.

The drawings and cartoons depict ways to use electric drills and irons, meat cleavers and other devices to force victims to talk or harm them.

Some of the drawings show how to drill hands, sever limbs, drag victims behind cars, remove eyes, put a blowtorch or iron to someone’s skin, suspend a person from a ceiling and electrocute them, break limbs and restrict breath and put someone’s head in a vice.

Items found at the safe house include electric drills, hammers, blow torches, meat cleavers, pliers and wire cutters, chains, screw drivers, whips and handcuffs.

Earlier this week U.S. troops found the information near Baghdad, along with five Iraqis being held.

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters Thursday that Al Qaeda poses a dangerous threat to the United States for years to come.

"Clearly, whatever military advice we give, both in Iraq and regionally, must take into account that this group — of Al Qaeda — has targeted free nations, to include the United States, and how our long-term plan and our long-term recommendations must deal with that very real threat to the United States," Pace said at a Pentagon briefing.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the United States continues to direct most efforts to defeating Al Qaeda, but he predicted insurgents in Iraq will ramp up attacks this summer

"I think the worry that we have is clearly what we have seen over the past year: that whatever progress is made — and particularly in the last few months — often is overshadowed when Al Qaeda will launch a major attack that kills a lot of innocent civilian Iraqis," Gates said.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Hey, I thought torture was keeping people up late, taking embarrassing pictures of them, not letting them wear scented deodorant, that sort of thing.

What do we call this, and the people who condone it? Is this something that your friends and neighbors do for you?

TR

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html

Al Qaeda 'Torture Handbook'
Thursday , May 24, 2007

Al Qaeda terrorists use blow torches, electric drills and meat cleavers to torture and force information out of their victims, according to a "how-to" book discovered in a terrorist safe house in Iraq.

The Defense Department recently released disturbing images and cartoons showing how to torture a captive found by American forces during a raid on a Al Qaeda safe house a few weeks ago. They also found photos of tortured Iraqi victims.

The book guides followers of Al Qaeda how to interrogate and torture captives.

The drawings and cartoons depict ways to use electric drills and irons, meat cleavers and other devices to force victims to talk or harm them.

Some of the drawings show how to drill hands, sever limbs, drag victims behind cars, remove eyes, put a blowtorch or iron to someone’s skin, suspend a person from a ceiling and electrocute them, break limbs and restrict breath and put someone’s head in a vice.

Items found at the safe house include electric drills, hammers, blow torches, meat cleavers, pliers and wire cutters, chains, screw drivers, whips and handcuffs.

Earlier this week U.S. troops found the information near Baghdad, along with five Iraqis being held.

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters Thursday that Al Qaeda poses a dangerous threat to the United States for years to come.

"Clearly, whatever military advice we give, both in Iraq and regionally, must take into account that this group — of Al Qaeda — has targeted free nations, to include the United States, and how our long-term plan and our long-term recommendations must deal with that very real threat to the United States," Pace said at a Pentagon briefing.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the United States continues to direct most efforts to defeating Al Qaeda, but he predicted insurgents in Iraq will ramp up attacks this summer

"I think the worry that we have is clearly what we have seen over the past year: that whatever progress is made — and particularly in the last few months — often is overshadowed when Al Qaeda will launch a major attack that kills a lot of innocent civilian Iraqis," Gates said.

TR- In my opinion, the saddest thing about this is, in a couple of days there will be someone on TV saying either they learned that stuff from us in GITMO, or it is justified because we still have GITMO open, if not both, and there are americans who will actually believe it.

[smp52]

I believe the following link is the study what all the news agencies have been citing with regards to Muslim Americans:

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

The study is approximately 100 pages long.

EDIT: My apologies. It is referenced in the article. If admins feel this link is not needed, please delete my post.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by smp52

I believe the following link is the study what all the news agencies have been citing with regards to Muslim Americans:

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

The study is approximately 100 pages long.

Here is the Cliff Note version that seems a lot more realistic.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ss_halffu.html

IMHO, if there are more than a dozen Muslim-American kids who believe that suicide bombings of civilian targets is legit, at any time, we are only a few blasting caps, an imam, and a coordinator away from a serious series of terrorist attacks that could cripple the US economy.

Turns out that there are hundreds of thousands living here among us.

TR

[abc_123]

TR,

i couldn't agree with you more. i've been doing a lot of thinking about this stuff lately and the more thinking I do the more scared I get.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

IMHO, if there are more than a dozen Muslim-American kids who believe that suicide bombings of civilian targets is legit, at any time, we are only a few blasting caps, an imam, and a coordinator away from a serious series of terrorist attacks that could cripple the US economy.

Turns out that there are hundreds of thousands living here among us.

TR

Yeah, exactly...However, what does that mean? And, where do we go from here?

I don't know what you all are thinking? But, in my experience as an entrepreneur if we can think it or imagine it - it is only a matter of time before you start seeing it - I have ideas in my head that I'm afraid to utter lest I give anyone ideas. I can imagine a lot of horrific scenarios...We need to consider the ramifications of what this reality means for our future. The rules of war and the resolutions of hate are changing in the abstract right now - whether we realize it or not - And, whistling in the dark is not the solution.

What sobers me just as much as the high number of terrorist sympathizers in the U.S. is that the 75% of Muslims who lean against supporting suicide bombers and terrorists - nevertheless, are still quite reluctant to speak up and voice their opposition to Muslim terrorism and its methods. If that doesn't change - I have little hope that a disaster can be averted - A disaster for both America and for America's Moslem community. In other words, there seems to be as many enablers (probably many more) in the Muslim community as there are folks sympathetic to terrorists. This passivity I find even more unnerving.

We need to seriously rethink our approach to America's Muslim community.

Some thoughts...

• Outlawing certain Moslem practices and teachings
• Regulation / Outlawing of inciteful speech and communication
• Registration and wiretapping of all Moslem Mosques and Schools
• Active racial and religious profiling
• Active system of deporations of Political Islamists
• Creation of a system of loyalty tests
• Creation of large and active means of human monitoring and informing
• Monitoring Moslem schools' and Mosques' interpretation of Koran as relating to jihad, infidels, Jews, and Christians
• A massive revision of domestic law for treating terrorism revised toward military law and the laws of treason.

The above list is meant for starters...

Bad things will happen...We shouldn't be caught flat-footed. In better times none of this would be necessary or even considered.

We're not in better times...

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

[x-factor]

Originally Posted by 3SoldierDad

We need to seriously rethink our approach to America's Muslim community.

Some thoughts...

• Outlawing certain Moslem practices and teachings
• Regulation / Outlawing of inciteful speech and communication
• Registration and wiretapping of all Moslem Mosques and Schools
• Active racial and religious profiling
• Active system of deporations of Political Islamists
• Creation of a system of loyalty tests
• Creation of large and active means of human monitoring and informing
• Monitoring Moslem schools' and Mosques' interpretation of Koran as relating to jihad, infidels, Jews, and Christians
• A massive revision of domestic law for treating terrorism revised toward military law and the laws of treason.

I respect that you're advocating facing down a serious threat and your sense of vigilance, but on several of these proposals I'm worried that you're talking about killing democracy to save it. Loyalty tests? Martial law? Monitoring religious opinions?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin

I'm not saying we don't need to be more vigilant. Certainly we need to improve our capability for domestic surveillance (both technical and human) in terms of making it more responsive and just generally larger. I think we need to seriously consider breaking off the counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism sections of the FBI into a domestic intelligence agency like Britain's MI5 (the stand up of DHS has been a debacle). Certainly there also needs to be better immigration and naturalization scrutiny.

In the 1960s and 70s we had problems with the Klan and neo-Nazi organizations. In the 1980s parts of the country (I grew up in Miami) faced a Wild West of drug running organized crime. In the 1990s we faced a problem with radical militia and white supremacist type groups. In all these cases (though to be fair they were smaller, less serious threats) we were able to beat them back without fundamentally compromising our core values.

With the utmost respect, we need to be smart and vigilant. We don't need to tear our society apart in a panic.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by x-factor

I respect that you're advocating facing down a serious threat and your sense of vigilance, but on several of these proposals I'm worried that you're talking about killing democracy to save it. Loyalty tests? Martial law? Monitoring religious opinions?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin

I'm not saying we don't need to be more vigilant. Certainly we need to improve our capability for domestic surveillance (both technical and human) in terms of making it more responsive and just generally larger. I think we need to seriously consider breaking off the counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism sections of the FBI into a domestic intelligence agency like Britain's MI5 (the stand up of DHS has been a debacle). Certainly there also needs to be better immigration and naturalization scrutiny.

In the 1960s and 70s we had problems with the Klan and neo-Nazi organizations. In the 1980s parts of the country (I grew up in Miami) faced a Wild West of drug running organized crime. In the 1990s we faced a problem with radical militia and white supremacist type groups. In all these cases (though to be fair they were smaller, less serious threats) we were able to beat them back without fundamentally compromising our core values.

With the utmost respect, we need to be smart and vigilant. We don't need to tear our society apart in a panic.

Agreed...We don't want to hurt ourselves while trying to help ourselves...

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with some of my own recommendations as well - but, I think they represent reality...I think in the end, unfortunately, we will lose many of our liberties. This is tragic. I think we will look back on our current time as the apex of the golden years...Nevertheless, society won't endure chaos. I'm a realist. So, I'm with you in spirit - I hope it doesn't have to get to where the recommendations like the ones I list become the staus quo. The point is - We'll probably get there whether we like it or not. I'm just laying it out. I'm not saying it's nice or the best world...right now I think we have the best world, but the world is changing fast.

I would be thrilled to be wrong. Sometimes I don't share things cause I don't like the fact that I'm actually saying it.

Franklin's quote is fine for a secure society - However, if is not secure, we will have lost liberty already - so, we will be in a battle to preserve the liberties that remain and/or trying to gain them back - and that's tricky. Less perilous times have seen martial law. With terror we've already lost tons of liberty - liberty to realistically dream about a secure world for our children and grandchildren - Were our fathers telling us we'd be at war for the rest of our lives as we are now telling our kids? The world is different for us than it was for our fathers, our grandparents, and for Benjamin Franklin. Things have been introduced that change the rules - and we are evidently a bit slow on the uptake.

Couple thoughts...

Relgious liberties are fine as long as they don't include conspiring to kill people - Jews, Christians, Hindus, Shia, non-Moslems, etc...Or, enabling millions to protect a killer culture. As you note the threat we're facing now is not from some splinter group - this is freak'n serious. We are dealing with a religion who's "holy book" advocates forcing conversion upon others and killing folks - killing men women and children - for resisting the application of the religion's injunctions.

A good starter for everyone is to read the Koran if you haven't already - It will open your eyes. In my reading of the Koran (it's not a long book - shorter than the Christian New Testament), one would have to misinterpret the book not to understand that obedience to it includes applying violence to people who refuse to come under the submission of Allah and the faith. Islamists are simply being obedient to their book's specific verses and commands. I'm not deluded enough to believe that many of Islam's 1.2 billion Muslims won't follow the very black and white tenets of their faith. If you don't have the time to read the Koran, I'd encourage the readers to visit the sites of Robert Spencer's http://jihadwatch.org/or Daniel Pipe's site http://www.danielpipes.org/


X-Factor, I hope you're right, and I'm over-reacting.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I am just a simple, frayed, and tired warrior so my observation probably does not resonate with most, but democracy works best were people are assimilated into a society and view themselves as being a contributing part and where society views them as being card carrying particpants loyal to the ideals, values and mores of the society from which it sprang. I do not see Islam as a binding force for anything but Islam which does not fit into the western culture or concept of democracy and sees that concept as a threat to its own existence. From my simple perspective I see those that are serious Islamic practioners in this country as members of their fundamentalist Auxillary feeding and supporting their underground movement from which will spring active and overt guerrilla actions against us. They have not matured to that level, are still building and testing their infrastructure and need either to be assimilated into western culture or isolated and eliminated like plucking out that bay leaf from the stew in the melting pot over which we have spilled blood to build. Make no mistake, radical Islam is at war with us.

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Make no mistake, radical Islam is at war with us.

Islam creates radical Islam. Read the Koran.

Quran 9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous." (Fakhry’s translation)

The book wars against all who are opposed to the reign of their God - Allah.

It looks to me like we are at war with Islam.

We are not at war with Moslems who don't follow their book. Just like Moslems that don't take multiple wives can assimilate into the United States - their infidelity to a Muslim practice makes assimilation possible. We are not at war with bad Muslims - Fortunately most today are still unfaithful Muslims - loving their families, their wives, and their communities more than the dictates of their faith. That's changing, however.

Since the Koran breaths violence toward all who are not under its umbrella. We're at war with Islam.

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Make no mistake, radical Islam is at war with us.

I also agree with how Mr. Moroney put this - Radical Islam is at war with us. However, we are not yet at war with radical Islam. We are trying to manage the face of this war and say that we have a War on Terror - Terror is merely a concept. You fight a concept in the the abstract - and we should defintely do that. However, we have lots of abstract fights - poverty, illiteracy, racism, disease, crime, drunk driving, drug abuse, high taxes, etc. Many of which if you remove Moslems from terrorism are a lot more dangerous than the terror war - and more relevant, too.

Islam is at war with us...How long will it be before we enjoin the battle by calling a spade a spade and go to war with radical Islam?

It does appear to me like we are at war with Islam....since that's where radical Islam comes from. Radical Islam could be called - Islam applied. You won't find any radical Moslems who aren't Moslems. Radical Islamists are simply the soldiers of Islam.

In 100 years people won't be calling this the Global War on Terror; I predict folks will refer to this era as the era of the Islamic-Western wars.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck