Are we at war with Islam?

[x-factor]

Originally Posted by Razor

Isn't this confirmed in the hadith by Muhammad that there are only three choices when a Muslim encounters an infidel:

• Allow them to accept Islam as the only religion and become Muslim
• Pay the Jizya (a money-making scam for Muhammad that allowed non-Muslims to keep their religion if they paid a 'tax'; not unlike the tributes demanded by the Barbary pirates)
• Kill them

Seems to me to meet the criteria of both conditions.

Thats my point on why Jihadists/Salafists/extremists are different from the Iranian government. One acts on that hadith in every case possible, the other takes it as just one factor of many in the course of statecraft.

[Razor]

I would say those that act in a predictable manner each and every time (the jihadis) are much easier to deal with than an unpredictable entity, such as you've described the Iranian government. Is it your opinion that both the Iranian people and their government selectively adhere to the edicts in the Qur'an, and ignore others to best suit their needs?

[x-factor]

Originally Posted by Razor

I would say those that act in a predictable manner each and every time (the jihadis) are much easier to deal with than an unpredictable entity, such as you've described the Iranian government. Is it your opinion that both the Iranian people and their government selectively adhere to the edicts in the Qur'an, and ignore others to best suit their needs?

I'd say jihadis are easier to deal with, in a sense. They're a simpler problem at the strategic level. The only real solution is to destroy them. Thats what I meant by us being in a zero-sum game with the jihadis.

As for Iran...I'd would say they "interpret" it differently (or at least not as stringently) from jihadis like Al Qaeda. Put it this way, for all Ahmadinejad's trash talk...if the Iranians were the same type of jihadi enemy as Al Qaeda, the would have executed the Brit sailors, UNIFIL in Lebanon would be fighting for its life, etc.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by x-factor

for all Ahmadinejad's trash talk...if the Iranians were the same type of jihadi enemy as Al Qaeda, the would have executed the Brit sailors, UNIFIL in Lebanon would be fighting for its life, etc.

Make no mistake, the iranians are just like the jihadist, in fact IMO they are one in the same.

But unlike the "free range jihadist" or "free range insurgent" that are hard to find and kill we know where the command and control of iran is, most of the time. Hence their display of compassion and "playing" of the brinkmanship game. They are not going to execute anyone on the public stage, not yet.

Wait until they have developed a fully functional nuclear weapon and we will see how their tone/attitude changes. Right now they are buying time, lots of time. There is a method to their madness.

TS

[SOCOM8721]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

TS

I am in Sierra Leone for 90 days and the Iranians are here signing a MOU for technology sharing with SL.

Now this is a country that has no technology, but TONS of Rutile...(Diamonds)

Just what kind of technology could be passing back and forth? And why, why I ask would the Iranians want to make friends on the West Coast of Africa?

Could it be range of weapon limitations from Iran?

[SOCOM8721]

Today: Friday April 20, 2007
Iranian National Library, Sierra Leonean Culture Ministry ink MoU
Tehran,

Iran-Sierra Leone-Library

Head of Document Organization and National Library of Iran and Sierra Leonean Culture and Tourism Minister signed a memorandum of understanding on Thursday.

According to the public relations office of Iran National Library, Okere Adams called for Iran's support for expanding Islamic and oriental culture in Sierra Leone.

Ali-Akbar Ash'ari, Cultural Advisor to President and Head of Document Organization and National Library, on his part, referred to creating joint Islamic front against western cultural invasion as one of aspects of the Islamic solidarity.

Ash'ari added that signing such MoU will expand cultural exchanges among Islamic countries.

The MoU, signed by Ash'ari and Adams, underlined the need to preserve written and digital national heritage of the two friendly countries.

The two sides also have agreed to exchange experts and develop cooperation on sharing information and experiences in different written heritage.


And now this today...

A METHOD TO THE MADNESS... YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!

[x-factor]

TS - I suspect our positions aren't as far apart as maybe it seems at first. Keeping them from acquiring a nuke, by whatever means, I would consider to be the cornerstone of an Iran containment policy.

[dennisw]

Thats my point on why Jihadists/Salafists/extremists are different from the Iranian government. One acts on that hadith in every case possible, the other takes it as just one factor of many in the course of statecraft.

I don't believe anyone will argue that there are differences in form between the two. It's the substance that is not different. I believe these similarities extend to their goals.

I get the impression that you are suggesting that there are different methods which can be used in addressing both. The Iranians are constantly talking about negotiations, yet they have not seemingly altered there progress towards obtaining nuclear weapons or expansion in the the middle east. I believe the appearance of the Iranians being open to negotiation is an allusion, a carefully crafted one at that.

The four US military men who were recently abducted and executed were most likely the victims of Iranians. Yes, the Iranians did not execute the British sailors, but that was because it did not suit their goals. However, they can be ruthless if they believe it is required or if it cannot be publicly verified. I believe the Al Queda types don't always execute their hostages either if receiving a ransom better meets their short term goals. Why?

But unlike the "free range jihadist" or "free range insurgent" that are hard to find and kill we know where the command and control of iran is, most of the time. Hence their display of compassion and "playing" of the brinkmanship game. They are not going to execute anyone on the public stage, not yet.

TR hits the nail on the head here. You attribute their seemly restraint to compassion or what? Wanting to be a good nation in standing? Tell that to the families whose sons have been killed by Iranian supplied IED's or by Iranian trained snipers.

Instead of focusing on methodology, let's focus on the goals of both the Iranians and the radical sunni insurgents: They both want to control the middle east and ultimately the World. They methods use are just different because they occupy different strategic and tactical positions.

The threshold question is still: Are we at war with islam?

[x-factor]

Originally Posted by dennisw

I believe the appearance of the Iranians being open to negotiation is an allusion, a carefully crafted one at that.

Without a doubt it is. The Iranians are proceeding with a multifaceted (military, political, diplomatic, cultural) strategy to expand their power until they become the regional leader and, by extension, a world power. This is similar, but not the same as Al Qaeda's goal to reestablish the Caliphate followed by neverending jihad. The key difference is Iran is trying to expand its power within the existing world system and through generally traditional methods. Al Qaeda is trying to flip the switch on the whole system using revolutionary methods (to include nuclear terrorism). Thats why, in my mind, Al Qaeda requires a more rapid, harsher approach, while Iran can be contained (and rolled back) through traditional statecraft.

The threshold question is still: Are we at war with islam?

Jihadist Islam, yes. General Islam, no.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by SOCOM8721

INow this is a country that has no technology, but TONS of Rutile...(Diamonds)

rutile is titanium oxide...diamonds are comprised of covalently bonded carbon atoms...in terms of strategically important materials, titanium is more coveted than diamonds...BTW, rutile is not a principle ore of titanium, saving that titanium used to coat welding rods or used as a pigment in paint...

[sg1987]

Man,
The hottest place in hell has got to be reserved for folks that teach children to do such things!!!!

How can you reach a kid after they've been brainwashed to this extent?


Jihadist video shows boy beheading man By ABDUL SATTAR, Associated Press Writer
52 minutes ago



The boy with the knife looks barely 12. In a high-pitched voice, he denounces the bound, blindfolded man before him as an American spy. Then he hacks off the captive's head to cries of "God is great!" and hoists it in triumph by the hair.

Story here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/...fXRQkQqKnMWM0F

If this is the wrong thread for the this, admins please move.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/...iams051107.htm

Springtime in Islamberg
Radical Muslim paramilitary compound flourishes in upper New York state

By Paul L. Williams Ph.D., (author of THE DAY OF ISLAM)

Friday, May 11, 2007

Situated within a dense forest at the foothills of the Catskill Mountains on the outskirts of Hancock, New York, Islamberg is not an ideal place for a summer vacation unless, of course, you are an exponent of the Jihad or a fan of Osama bin Laden.

The 70 acre complex is surrounded with "No trespassing" signs; the rocky terrain is infested with rattlesnakes; and the woods are home to black bears, coyotes, wolves, and a few bobcats.

The entrance to the community is at the bottom of a very steep hill that is difficult to navigate even on a bright sunny day in May. The road, dubbed Muslim Lane, is unpaved and marred by deep crevices that have been created by torrential downpours. On a wintry day, few, save those with all terrain vehicles, could venture forth from the remote encampment.

A sentry post has been established at the base of the hill.

The sentry, at the time of this visit, is an African American dressed in Islamic garb - - a skull cap, a prayer shawl, and a loose fitting shalwat kameez. He instructs us to turn around and leave. "Our community is not open to visitors," he says.

Behind the sentry and across a small stream stand dozens of inhabitants of the compound - - the men wearing skull caps and loose fitting tunics, the women in full burqa. They appear ready to deal with any unauthorized intruders.

The hillside is blighted by rusty trailers that appear to be without power or running water and a number of outhouses. The scent of raw sewage is in the air.

The place is even off limits to the local undertaker who says that he has delivered bodies to the complex but has never been granted entrance. "They come and take the bodies from my hearse. They won't allow me to get past the sentry post. They say that they want to prepare the bodies for burial. But I never get the bodies back. I don't know what's going on there but I don't think it's legal."

On the other side of the hill where few dare to go is a tiny village replete with a make-shift learning center (dubbed the "International Quranic Open University"); a trailer converted into a Laundromat; a small, green community center; a small and rather squalid grocery store; a newly constructed majid; over forty clapboard homes; and scores of additional trailers.

It is home to hundreds - - all in Islamic attire, and all African-Americans. Most drive late model SUVs with license plates from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, South Carolina, and Tennessee. The locals say that some work as tollbooth operators for the New York State Thruway, while others are employed at a credit card processing center that maintains confidential financial records.

While buzzing with activity during the week, the place becomes a virtual hive on weekends. The guest includes arrivals from the inner cities of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania and, occasionally, white-robed dignitaries in Ray-Bans from the Middle East.

Venturing into the complex last summer, Douglas Hagmann, an intrepid investigator and director of the Northeast Intelligence Service, came upon a military training area at the eastern perimeter of the property. The area was equipped with ropes hanging from tall trees, wooden fences for scaling, a make-shift obstacle course, and a firing range. Hagmann said that the range appeared to have been in regular use.

Islamberg is not as benign as a Buddhist monastery or a Carmelite convent. Nearly every weekend, neighbors hear sounds of gunfire. Some, including a combat veteran of the Vietnam War, have heard the bang of small explosives. None of the neighbors wished to be identified for fear of "retaliation." "We don't even dare to slow down when we drive by," one resident said. "They own the mountain and they know it and there is nothing we can do about it but move, and we can't even do that. Who wants to buy a property near that?"

The complex serves to scare the bejeesus out of the local residents. "If you go there, you better wear body armor," a customer at the Circle E Diner in Hancock said. "They have armed guards and if they shoot you, nobody will find your body."

At Cousins, a watering hole in nearby Deposit, a barfly, who didn't wish to be identified, said: "The place is dangerous. You can hear gunfire up there. I can't understand why the FBI won't shut it down."

Islamberg is a branch of Muslims of the Americas Inc., a tax-exempt organization formed in 1980 by Pakistani cleric Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, who refers to himself as "the sixth Sultan Ul Faqr," Gilani, has been directly linked by court documents to Jamaat ul-Fuqra or "community of the impoverished," an organization that seeks to "purify" Islam through violence.Ý

Though primarily based in Lahore, Pakistan, Jamaat ul-Fuqra has operational headquarters in New York and openly recruits through various social service organizations in the U.S., including the prison system. Members live in hamaats or compounds, such as Islamberg, where they agree to abide by the laws of Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which are considered to be above local, state and federal authority. Additional hamaats have been established in Hyattsville, Maryland; Red House, Virginia; Falls Church, Virginia; Macon, Georgia; York, South Carolina; Dover, Tennessee; Buena Vista, Colorado; Talihina, Oklahoma; Tulare Country, California; Commerce, California; and Onalaska, Washington. Others are being built, including an expansive facility in Sherman, Pennsylvania.

Before becoming a citizen of Islamberg or any of the other Fuqra compounds, the recruits - - primarily inner city black men who became converts in prison - - are compelled to sign an oath that reads: "I shall always hear and obey, and whenever given the command, I shall readily fight for Allah's sake."

In the past, thousands of members of the U.S. branches of Jamaat ul-Fuqra traveled to Pakistan for paramilitary training, but encampments, such as Islamberg, are now capable of providing boot-camp training so raw recruits are no longer required to travel abroad amidst the increased scrutiny of post 9/11.

Over the years, numerous members of Jamaat ul-Fuqra have been convicted in US courts of such crimes as conspiracy to commit murder, firebombing, gun smuggling, and workers' compensation fraud. Others remain leading suspects in criminal cases throughout the country, including ten unsolved assassinations and seventeen fire-bombings between 1979 and 1990.

The criminal charges against the group and the criminal convictions are not things of the past. In 2001, a resident of a California compound was charged with first-degree murder in the shooting of a sheriff's deputy; another was charged with gun-smuggling' and twenty-four members of the Red House community were convicted of firearms violations.

By 2004 federal investigators uncovered evidence that linked both the DC "sniper killer" John Allen Muhammed and "Shoe Bomber" Richard Reid to the group and reports surfaced that Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was captured and beheaded in the process of attempting to obtain an interview with Sheikh Gilani in Pakistan.

Even though Jamaat ul-Fuqra has been involved in terror attacks and sundry criminal activities, recruited thousands of members from federal and state penal systems, and appears to be operating paramilitary facilities for militant Muslims, it remains to be placed on the official US Terror Watch List. On the contrary, it continues to operate, flourish, and expand as a legitimate nonprofit, tax-deductible charity.

[The Reaper]

Now see, I always thought the biggest threat was Islamic terrorists trying to kill the rest of us.

TR

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,273312,00.html

Islamophobia Worst Form of Terrorism, Islamic Foreign Ministers Say
Thursday , May 17, 2007

The gravest terrorist threat in the world today is Islamophobia, foreign ministers of the Organization of the Islamic Conference said this week.

“It is something that has assumed xenophobic proportions,” they said.

The ministers described Islamophobia as a deliberate defamation of Islam and discrimination and intolerance against Muslims. They accused Western media of misrepresenting Islam and Muslims worldwide, according to a report in Arab News.

“The linkage of terrorists and extremists with Islam in a generalized manner is unacceptable," the ministers said.

"The increasingly negative political and media discourse targeting Muslims and Islam in the United States and Europe has made things all the more difficult," the foreign ministers said, according to the report.

“This campaign of calumny against Muslims resulted in the publication of the blasphemous cartoons depicting Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in a Danish newspaper and the issuance of the inflammatory statement by Pope Benedict XVI,” the ministers said.

The ministers said the Islamophobic terror threat predates this decade, but worsened on Sept. 11, 2001.

“Islamophobia became a source of concern, especially after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, but the phenomenon was already there in Western societies in one form or the other," they said.

“It gained further momentum after the Madrid and London bombings. The killing of Dutch film director Theo van Gogh in 2004 was used in a wicked manner by certain quarters to stir up a frenzy against Muslims."

[Ret10Echo]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Now see, I always thought the biggest threat was Islamic terrorists trying to kill the rest of us.

TR

"The increasingly negative political and media discourse targeting Muslims and Islam in the United States and Europe has made things all the more difficult," the foreign ministers said, according to the report.

More difficult for what? For fundamentalists to kill innocents in Western nations?

[The Reaper]

The really scary thing is that Van Gogh, the cartoonists, the Pope, etc. are all justifications for terrorism; but murder, assassinations, arson, rape, racist characterizations, cartoons, calling them pigs, etc. is fine for Muslims to do to Israelis and the US.

If we treated the Muslims like they treat us and the Israelis, we would have killed most of them off already.

TR