Financial collapse??

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Lan

Not trying to split hairs here but water and food have intrinsic value

To a point.
Once you have more than you can eat/store/defend, how much is the excess worth?

What if many others have similar goods in excess as well?
The trading value of your excess is dependent on how much others need/want it, and whether they can find a better deal somewhere else.

[Surf n Turf]

Broadsword,
Think of precious metals as "repositories of wealth" awaiting a trading opportunity.

I person A has something to sell, and person B has PM, Person A will take precious metal "in trade" for the sale, as it has a high level of future trading potential. When things do not have a direct barter possibility the ability to "storehouse" the trade is made possible through PM (or anything equally valued by both parties). The beauty of PM is that it universally recognized as valuable, and is also universally accepted as payment, and has been for over 6,000 years. PM utility is part real and part legend, but its value is unquestionable.

Physical PM is difficult to forge or counterfeit. Some recent scandals of PM forgery have shaken the industry to the ground. Yet PM is bought, sold, and traded every day. The majority of these transactions are at arm's length, and require trust for the transaction to be successful. The reason for this success is that most PM is in forms easily recognized by everyone -- $20 gold eagle, $5 silver round, etc.. and the PM's value is available (daily) via every newspaper, internet, or brokerage house.

SnT

[MR2]

Toilet paper. The Wonder Bread kind, not that German prestained Rye kind.

[Max_Tab]

Originally Posted by Surf n Turf

Broadsword,
Think of precious metals as "repositories of wealth" awaiting a trading opportunity.

I person A has something to sell, and person B has PM, Person A will take precious metal "in trade" for the sale, as it has a high level of future trading potential. When things do not have a direct barter possibility the ability to "storehouse" the trade is made possible through PM (or anything equally valued by both parties). The beauty of PM is that it universally recognized as valuable, and is also universally accepted as payment, and has been for over 6,000 years. PM utility is part real and part legend, but its value is unquestionable.

Physical PM is difficult to forge or counterfeit. Some recent scandals of PM forgery have shaken the industry to the ground. Yet PM is bought, sold, and traded every day. The majority of these transactions are at arm's length, and require trust for the transaction to be successful. The reason for this success is that most PM is in forms easily recognized by everyone -- $20 gold eagle, $5 silver round, etc.. and the PM's value is available (daily) via every newspaper, internet, or brokerage house.

SnT

Good post. This is why people on this thread have said to supplement with gold and silver, not sell everything and buy only gold. Immediately after a collapse barter items will be the most valuable, nobody can eat PM, they don't keep you warm or put a cover over your head. Immediately after things like food, ammo, guns, magazines, boots, warm clothes, knives, medicine, shelter or protection will be the most sought after. And of course you can't forget the "sin" items; alchohol, cigarettes and drugs. They will actually be worth more than gold and silver.

After awhile and things have stabilized a little bit that's when the gold and silver will come into there own. I would recomend starting with silver, because it's cheaper and easier to get a supply. Gold is 1200-1300 dollars an oz and silver is around 20. Get some 1 oz silver coins, and pre 1965 quarters and dimes which are .90 percent silver. About 5 quarters equal 1 oz. If you get some extra money buy 1/10 oz gold coins. It's a way to get some gold without having to save up for an entire oz. As TR said it's hard to make change for a 5 karat diamond for a couple gallons of gas, but 4-5 silver quarters are easy.

But for the immediate time after bullets, guns, food and most importantly a plan will be what keeps you alive.

[tonyz]

It seems to me that the value of items in a collapse will depend on a number of things...including one's current inventory of consumables, time, and both sides to a transactions perspective vis-a-vis needs/responsibilities and the prevailing view as to the long term future (more than a year or two of economic chaos).

Historically, precious metals have held value - how much value might depend on how long you (and others) believe the collapse (whatever it may be) will last and how long you (and your trading partners) stores will last.

In a complete economic collapse if your food, water, ammo stores are solid (or at least capable of replenishment) AND you can see light at the end of the tunnel regarding a collapse - then you might take precious metal in trade for some of your stores. As has been mentioned, I think "sin" items may prove valuable in a short to long term collapse - precious metals could prove very handy and valuable in a short to medium collapse.

If, however, a more than a few months have passed and no reports of a return to civilization as normal and food and water and the means to obtain them become difficult to come by...you may not wish to deplete what you can eat, drink, shoot, over the next few months for what may be of significant value ( i.e., gold, silver, diamonds) in what might become a year or years.

On the other hand, fortunes have been made with the right gamble and a little luck in trade. Safe passage and other items of value might be purchased with precious items through denied territory as the provisional authorities have banded together to such a degree as to meet their hierarchy of needs and replenish the same to create excess - which they are willing to trade for non-consumable precious metals/jewels and the like.

You can't eat gold but those with excess consumables (and methods to replenish) AND a favorable perspective on the future will take gold (whatever the precious item) in trade.

Everything is a balance and psychology, perspective, and opportunity is also important to value.

In the end, the ability to protect whatever it is that you have of value may prove consistently valuable. YMMV.

[Max_Tab]

One other item that people don't think about both for yourself and extremely valuable for trade is seeds esp if it's going to be long term situation.

[Oldrotorhead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROO...?v=9ROOi5xagxg

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Don't know to be honest. But that is what I have read happened. Different assets have their pluses and minuses I am sure.

Rare items stamps, diamonds, jewelery, or art ASS ume you can escape to a geographic location that values them. An example would be Jews in Germany before WWII. You could carry a few rare stamps or diamonds where the same value in gold or other heavy or high volume items would not work.


Coin silver coins pre-1965, food, water or the means to get potable water may be better options if you can't leave.

Todays prices for silver coins.

1942-1945 Nickel * $0.05 $1.0763
Barber Silver Dime 1892-1916
Barber Dime $0.10 $1.3838
1916 Mercury Dime 1916-1945
Mercury Dime $0.10 $1.3838
1964 Roosevelt Dime 1946-1964 Roosevelt Dime $0.10 $1.3838
1963 Silver Quarter 1932-1964 Washington Quarter $0.25 $3.4596

[Stiletto11]

There's a good blog called: SHTFschool.com where the guy lived through the Balkan Wars in the 90's. He details what it is like to live through a melt down. Of course it could never happen here but it is a good education on what could happen and what people turn into when SHTF.

http://files.meetup.com/196633/SILEN...IET%20WARS.pdf

Gold and silver can be seen as insurance in the event of a currency crisis. We buy fire insurance for our homes and at the end of the year are we pissed off because the house didn't burn down?

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

IMO, too many gold proponents have this nearly religious view of gold, when really gold is just another asset valued according to the whims of human desire and emotion.

lol That whim goes back a few thousand years, BS.

[PSM]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

IMO, too many gold proponents have this nearly religious view of gold, when really gold is just another asset valued according to the whims of human desire and emotion.

Exactly! My thoughts for a long time. We haven't grown up using gold as a face-to-face exchange in a hundred years. If someone came to me and offered to buy some tomatoes, potatoes, and onions, how much gold will I ask for? Off hand, I'd say all of it since he's hungry and has to lug all the heavy metal around. We agree on a bit of what he has. Then what? What if no one wants to except it from me because we've developed a mutually excepted barter society? I'm out the vegetables and stuck with a worthless metal, at least in my community.

I heard Walter E. Williams say that dollar bills are just "certificates of performance". They show that you provided a service to someone who could not render an immediate service in return and handed you a fancy IOU. The community will decide how much value there is to this IOU and what products or services you will receive in return for them. I don't really see the value in gold. But those that do may well take your life for it. There's a Twilight Zone episode about it: http://www.cbs.com/shows/the_twiligh...n-winkle-caper We may live in that time.

BTW, for those who want to go back to the gold standard, there's not enough gold in the world to do that now.

Pat

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Sure it does. But that doesn't make it any more sound. Gold can be, and has in the past at certain periods for example, been subject to inflation.

Look. A guy who hasn't eaten in 3 weeks would probably trade a ton of gold for a T-bone. That's a given, BS. But in the event of a global financial collapse, money is going to revert back to a standard of gold/silver/gems as a new society emerges. That's how it's always been, and that's the way it's gonna be in that particular hypothetical future.

If you wanna save up Sweet Tarts or buckeyes, go ahead.

[GratefulCitizen]

Money will be whatever the guys with guns collecting "taxes" say it is.
If the guys with guns find that people are using polished gravel as a medium of exchange, the guys with guns will trade "protection" for polished gravel.

The dollar has value because the US government accepts it as taxes.
If you don't give them dollars when they demand taxes, guys with guns take your stuff and trade it to someone else for dollars.

Dollars = stuff because guys with guns say so.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

I said that one should keep some gold and silver on hand, just not to believe it's the end-all, be-all. It could be a while before any new society emerges in such a situation, depending. I'd also think skill sets of various types would be a form of wealth too, as one can trade skills (services) for goods or other services.

BS,

You were bagging gold and precious metals in post #46

Gold itself is a fiat currency, as gold itself has no intrinsic value either

and were opting for jewels based on WWII

Post #56 you stated

but if the economy falls apart, gold, silver, copper, etc...don't have much use either, unless you have a functioning industrial economy, which means you will have a currency in place. If the economy falls apart, gold is just a shiny metal.

You've circled around on this one............imo

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

I said that one should keep some gold and silver on hand, just not to believe it's the end-all, be-all. It could be a while before any new society emerges in such a situation, depending. I'd also think skill sets of various types would be a form of wealth too, as one can trade skills (services) for goods or other services.

Let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. I was talking about a total monetary collapse. A stack of hundos won't be worth a penny. (Actually, they will be.) Bartering will lead to trading in tokens. The most valuable tangible for tokens is gold, silver and jewels.

That's been SOP since Noah landed.

[Max_Tab]

Originally Posted by Max_Tab

Good post. This is why people on this thread have said to supplement with gold and silver, not sell everything and buy only gold. Immediately after a collapse barter items will be the most valuable, nobody can eat PM, they don't keep you warm or put a cover over your head. Immediately after things like food, ammo, guns, magazines, boots, warm clothes, knives, medicine, shelter or protection will be the most sought after. And of course you can't forget the "sin" items; alchohol, cigarettes and drugs. They will actually be worth more than gold and silver.

After awhile and things have stabilized a little bit that's when the gold and silver will come into there own. I would recomend starting with silver, because it's cheaper and easier to get a supply. Gold is 1200-1300 dollars an oz and silver is around 20. Get some 1 oz silver coins, and pre 1965 quarters and dimes which are .90 percent silver. About 5 quarters equal 1 oz. If you get some extra money buy 1/10 oz gold coins. It's a way to get some gold without having to save up for an entire oz. As TR said it's hard to make change for a 5 karat diamond for a couple gallons of gas, but 4-5 silver quarters are easy.

But for the immediate time after bullets, guns, food and most importantly a plan will be what keeps you alive.

Reposting... it won't take a society fully coming back before PM will be valuable, but it will take a little stability, where people have their basic needs met.