Marines Pose with SS Flag

[head]

Thought you guys might enjoy this perspective. Saw it linked from the SWJ.

http://mcgazette.blogspot.com/2012/0...pervision.html

All of these events were a failure of leadership. Every Marine involved knew that what they were doing is wrong, but they did nothing to stop it. This is a problem that a safety standown, more specific regulations, and education about morality and ethics will not fix. We have fostered a culture that takes perverse pleasure in enforcing irrelevant standards while simultaneously ignoring or enabling true misconduct. We’ve fostered a generation of Marines who will look at the picture of the scout snipers and see facial hair, unbloused boots, and hands in pockets before they notice Nazi propaganda. They will quickly condemn failures in appearance but will enable and defend moral failings. They will ignore and allow a Lance Corporal to be hazed and ostracized. They will join in with the desecration of bodies. These are our priorities. But at least the grass around the battalion CP will remain undisturbed by feet clad in identical socks.

I concur that sometimes we (the military) do not see the forest through all the trees. The presence of regulations, guidelines, powerpoint classes can never make up for the absence of leadership. We don't always need to be told what is right or wrong by the media, or politicians, or our higher ups or our regulations - what we need is for true leaders to stand up for common sense and decency.

[The Reaper]

I think I have already done at least 24 hours this fiscal year on mandatory training. Sexual Harrassment and Rape Prevention, OPSEC training, Computer Training, Defense Travel System Training, Citibank Training, probably three full days of on-line and attended training. Probably another six hours trying to get the training documented in a database.

Why do you think that training is mandated and recorded? Other than to check the block and cover someone's ass?

Because someone did something stupid that they should have known better.

Will telling people not to do something, stop people from doing it?

Not in my experience.

But they will damn sure not be able to say that they were not told.

The next Marines who piss on corpses, haze new personnel, or pose with Nazi icons will be hung out to dry.

TR

[BOfH]

Symbols and meaning: http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/...-insspiration/

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by John_Chrichton

Entire post.

You're offering a curious argument. Among other things, it suggests that you do not have a problem with those who find inspiration in the symbols of the Nazi dictatorship because the meaning has "been changed." By offering this argument, you are displaying a frame of mind similar to those who think it is all right to use a specific epithet referring to blacks because the spelling has been changed and, therefore, the significance of the word and the history of America has been transformed through the magical power of MySpace.

Moreover, you are arguing that the armed services should not be subject to civilian authority.

Originally Posted by John_Chrichton

Since the American sheeple have abandoned their civic obligation to defend their own country to the 1%, they have also abdicated a moral right to dictate what symbols help to raise morale and create unit cohesion.

Yet elsewhere, you bemoaned the possibility of the armed forces serving as a laboratory for a "grand social experiment."

So, did your initial umbrage stem from the concept of experimentation itself, or are you hoping to use the armed services for a different type of experiment altogether?

[cant hardly]

.

[plato]

I hope that my apparently humorous approach to a serious topic translates reasonably well, as it would if we were actually using voices. I take myself with a grain of salt. I prefer an exchange of opinions with a smile. It was "the norm" in my fathers family, and worked very well for all of them.

And, I follow sandbox rule #4. If I don't respect somebody, I don't play with them.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Wow a very articulate and poetic sentence. Goes to show if you are a good talker you can justify anything including the murder of 10 million innocent people.

You're supposed to forgive the way my sentence is put together. I am phraseologically disadvantaged.
And, from my allegories, you should gather that I am saying "My hands aren't totally clean either, nor are the collective hands of any military force." Check your hamstrings. It's a long leap from there to "I approve".
Also, I wouldn't use the word "allegories" except that I'm running one of Sigaba's posts through a decoding program. That, and other strange/cool words are popping up.

Originally Posted by hoot72

1. I understand where you're coming from but there is a norm in society and within that norm there is right and wrong.
2. in-large, in almost all 1st world nations, espcially those who suffered dramatic destruction and huge losses of life, the SS symbol means what it means and that is a direct link to the nazi party.
3. What the marine scout snipers did/have been doing, if it is true they have been doing it for the longest time is, morally, wrong.

1. I have, during my lifetime, seen about half the norms change. Sometimes todays norm seems better, sometimes not. However, 50 years from now a lot of todays norms will be "obviously wrong".
2. See Chevy Camaro. Actually, if I painted on the old 1960's peace symbol, formed a group and we committed atrocities, is it a peace symbol, or a symbol of atrocities?
3. I don't see "morally wrong". I see "badass" in a way that could have been better stated. I watched young black marines on cable as they went through sniper school. I don't think they are Nazis. YMMV

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Persons can contribute to a political sensibility in which a specific armed service is out of step with the values of the society it is tasked to protect.
If certain groups of warriors want to claim that it is their prerogative to take a postmodern approach to history in its selection of rituals, traditions, and symbols while averring that civilians are over reacting, that's their choice.
(And also, the logic that interested parties should not take notice or offense of how others interpret symbols undermines significantly the intellectual and political opposition to the current president and his supporters.
My $0.02.

Sigaba,
I have only one disagreement with what you said here. I counted the $10 words separately, and I believe this is your $1,790.02 worth.

As for your other points, I can only respond "Huh?"

[plato]

Originally Posted by SF_BHT

Plato your argument does not hold water…….You must have slipped through the system at the lower Hudson school for wayward boys.

You're a QP and this is your house. I respect both.

Ignoring your response would be rude however, therefore......

I respectfully submit the following.

There are probably a couple of hundred soldiers who would disagree with an assertion that I should have never been commissioned. At least a couple dozen of those are very qualified and respected QPs who knew me from working side-by-side.

That sounded more like a .45 firing instead of a perhaps more appropriate kick to the knee.

[Paslode]

I understand the issue these Marines sporting symbols like Runes or the Totenkopf symbols. But considering Hitler and the Nazi's were statistically out performed by the likes of Mao Ze Dong and Josef Stalin, and no less heinous that Hideki Tojo and Japan I question the motivation of the now Holocaust Expert.

Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?


SS Rune, MS13, KKK or Black Power Fist tattoos? Are any more acceptable than another?

[John_Chrichton]

Originally Posted by Paslode

Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?

I don't know, but ask Anita Dunn!

[scooter]

Based on long personal experience, I'll say this:

The scout sniper community uses the SS symbol because its "badass" and it shares the same initials. It is not an advocation of the german national socialist party or any of their associated acts. They found a symbol and repurposed it.

The seals wear pirate flag patches. They are not advocating butchery and robbery on the high seas, nor paying tribute to Blackbeard. It looked cool and the took it.

Those of you equating the use of this symbol with moral statements are misreading their use in this context. Maybe we should take a hard look at all of the "assasin company" commanders, or units with callsigns like Gladiator.....after all that might be advocating slavery and forced combat for entertainment.

These marines are guilty of bad situational awareness, nothing else. For everyone who wants to make statements about twenty year old marines, in combat, acting at all times as public representatives of the government to the body politic, and the urgent need to punish them judicially..... I will say that in my humble opinion, you haven't been near a front line unit in combat in a long, long time.

[Mr Furious]

We know the symbol and recognize it because we’re ancient and we’re seeing this through our lens. Everyone recognizes a swastika and it’s association because that is what is universally reinforced with Nazi’s and their ideology. That SS symbol is not reinforced and in people’s faces today. Is that specific symbol taught in HS before these guys enlist? (Seriously, I’m asking) It wasn’t for me, and I’m old and retired. Those who served in Vietnam were 20 years removed from that regime and it was a bit more fresh in the minds. That would be like those serving today remembering the symbols and associations from the 1st Gulf War, 20 years ago. Flip the coin from the dark side to the good side and ask a young guy what the patch of the OSS looked like without Googling it. I doubt you’ll get a correct answer from most. When I see someone sporting the confederate colors I assume they are proud of their Southern heritage, not that they want to reinstitute human slavery. Of course it can also in context be used as a symbol of hate. Why are we not spinning up about all the different brands or logos that use the sig rune? Runes were around long before the SS. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...-in-runes.html

Leadership always needs to step up, set the example, and be accountable. That’s not even a question. I just don't think they did this with the intention of being anti-Semitic and associating themselves with the SS. I was on a deployment where a guy from NSWU-2 was a very good tattoo artist and brought a kit with him. A bunch of team and support guys all got black tattoos depicting the head of Anubis. It was a company espirit de corps and bonding thing, and not some maligned intent or devotion to the pharaohs and ancient persecutors of the Israelites. It had nothing to do with failed leadership. Yes, I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion and the MSM will get their mileage from it while they can.

[Paslode]

Not to diminish the atrocities of the Nazi's but it is said that History belongs to the victors, and with that in mind General Curtis Lemay once said, that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes.

[Brian1/75]

I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place. It has completely different meaning. On the other hand, the Japanese Rising Sun here is kind of a 'cool' little thing. I've seen guys paint parts of their Japanese cars in this. But if I was in Korea, this would be a heinous symbol identified with years of imperial conquest and war crimes. At the same time the SS symbol in most Western culture is a symbol of heinous war crimes and white supremacist.

I'm also surprise to see so many throw out the idea that enlisted men are ignorant. I could of flown this flag in the cages at 1/75 and I guarantee at least half my platoon of young ignorant enlisted men would have called me on it. I can guarantee my entire platoon has seen Band of Brothers, and 90% of them have seen American History X and likely these Scout-Snipers have as well. No, that guy was not a Scout-Sniper, he was a white supremacist. This isn't about history. You guys might be ancient, but these symbols are part of popular culture.

Comparing the SS symbol to the Jolly Roger makes no sense. People that had to worry about that flag are no longer among the living. Pirates have been romanticized. So have Southern 'rebels.' Again cultural context. The swastika and the SS are still symbols of evil in our culture. I guarantee these men knew what it meant. Did they care? No. Should they be punished? Probably not if it's been ingrained in Scout-Sniper culture for 30 years. But these guys are still plain stupid for flying it and I am kind of about punishing stupidity. Maybe in a 100 years we can start rocking SS symbols, but it's too soon.

[Sigaba]

MOO posts #9 and #39 by QP Longrange1947 greatly undermine arguments that the use of the symbol is only about the morale of the Marines' sniper community and is therefore merely a well-intended mistake that can be explained simply by the phrase "they did not know."

[hoot72]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place.

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?