Rise of Islam in France

[Oldrotorhead]

Originally Posted by Todd 1

I agree, but why do they use their new powers and freedoms to transform their new home into the same shithole they came from?

Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank.

[Todd 1]

Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead

Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank.

Exactly, and when the natives get pissed the lamestream liberal media describe them with words that end in “ism” and “phobia”.

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by Richard

RE Post #58

You're saying it had nothing to do with French post-colonial immigration and naturalization policy combined with their overt cultural bias? Better go back to the library and start over...or join the FN's PR department.

Richard

Richard,

I'm sorry, I must not have expressed myself clearly. Let me try to explain relevant bits of my post.

Originally Posted by silentreader

To understand Europe's, and especially France's, problem with Muslim immigrants you have to go back to the end of WW2 and the colonial period.

This seems to imply that it had a lot to do with French post-colonial immigration policy, yes?

The short version is this:

I'll be the first to admit I do need to go back to the library, this is a big part of the reason I attempted to provide a "short" version and not a more detailed one.

However, the French never made any attempt to draw their immigrant workers into French society. They kept them at arm's length in the Banlieues ('burbs/ghettos) and designed two separate social systems, one for their French citizens and one for their workers.

Again, this seems to address both naturalization policy and French cultural bias. In retrospect, I should have mentioned the end of the French colonial period in Algeria before this bit, especially the radically different ways French colonists were treated as compared to Algerians who had supported the French upon their return to France.

The 8 weeks of vacation, permanent employment, and all the other luxuries of life in France are only made possible due to the exploitation of the immigrant classes, who enjoy none of the benefits that native French do. It should be no surprise that these neighborhoods have become breading grounds of resentment; the French are reaping what they have sown.

Unless I am seriously mistaken, the Front National would have a collective heart attack if one of their PR people ever made a statement like that. Unless you read it as me advocating for the "exploitation of the immigrant classes" as a good thing?

[Richard]

RE Post #63

Your suppositons regarding modern French I&N policies and related internal cultural conflicts should - as a minimum - go back to the great post-WW1 migratory period.

The colonial citizens of countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco were citizens of the Republic - many of them multi-generational citizens - but the societal exclusion they faced in France was unexpectedly even more pronounced than what were endured within their former colonies and has grown perceptively worse on both sides with time. The reasons are numerous and far more complex than what was stated in posts #58 and #63.

A large portion of the post-WW2 immigrants were sephardic Jews from North Africa - not Muslims - and their experiences mirrored those of the Muslims or any other immigrant group. One must answer why that is so to begin to really understand the issues in France today.

Acculturation has always been an issue in Europe - and especially in France (whose immigrant population remains around 10% of its total population) where, in recognition of the problems, the responsibility today lies directly with the French Ministry of Immigration, Integration, National Identity and Codevelopment.

I offer no answers...other than the problems are so, they are complicated, and they are much more than merely a cheap labor, Islam, or any other singular EIB Network talking point issue.

Richard

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by Richard

RE Post #63

Your suppositons regarding modern French I&N policies and related internal cultural conflicts should - as a minimum - go back to the great post-WW1 migratory period.

The colonial citizens of countries like Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco were citizens of the Republic - many of them multi-generational citizens - but the societal exclusion they faced in France was unexpectedly even more pronounced than what were endured within their former colonies and has grown perceptively worse on both sides with time. The reasons are numerous and far more complex than what was stated in posts #58 and #63.

A large portion of the post-WW2 immigrants were sephardic Jews from North Africa - not Muslims - and their experiences mirrored those of the Muslims or any other immigrant group. One must answer why that is so to begin to really understand the issues in France today.

Acculturation has always been an issue in Europe - and especially in France (whose immigrant population remains around 10% of its total population) where, in recognition of the problems, the responsibility today lies directly with the French Ministry of Immigration, Integration, National Identity and Codevelopment.

I offer no answers...other than the problems are so, they are complicated, and they are much more than merely a cheap labor, Islam, or any other singular EIB Network talking point issue.

Richard

Thank you for your answer sir, I sent you a PM before I saw it. My knowledge of inter-war France pretty much stops with the building of the Maginot line. I will now go back to my observation deck and go silent, but I'm glad that my participation in this thread drew out this answer.

[Todd 1]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The 'powers that be' have nothing to do with this dynamic?

What???

Let me clarify my statement:

I repeatedly hear the argument that [fill in the blank] came to the United States to escape the poverty, violence, oppression, etc, etc of their homeland and to make a better life for them and their family. I understand and support that, my ancestors did the same thing. Who doesn’t want to live the American dream? This is the best place on earth.

But then I hear talk of sharia law in the US, see things on the news about honor killings, muslim cab drivers who will not give rides to people with dogs or who are carrying alcohol, mosques that preach violence, attempted and successful terror attacks, but yet little to no outcry from the “moderate and peaceful”. So my question still stands: Why are they trying to create a mirror image of their old home in their new host…err…home?

[Richard]

So my question still stands: Why are they trying to create a mirror image of their old home in their new host…err…home?

Seems like a question the Native Americans might have been pondering among themselves, too.

Richard

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

Seems like a question the Native Americans might have been pondering among themselves, too.

Richard

There are no Native Americans - Just a disagreement over who got here first - and when.

Should rights in the Americans be based on when you or your ancestors got to the "new land"?

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Pete

There are no Native Americans - Just a disagreement over who got here first - and when.

Should rights in the Americans be based on when you or your ancestors got to the "new land"?

Roger that!

I say we give the whole Country back to the Basket Weavers. And give them one million baskets apiece.

[akv]

Originally Posted by silentreader

The short version is this: WW2 depleted Europe's manpower.

While WW2 definitely depleted European manpower, especially in the case of the Germans and Eastern Europeans, is this really applicable to France in WW2, given the fact unlike WW1 in which they suffered grievous casualties, France was rapidly overrun and surrendered very early to the Blitzkrieg in 1940? In the case of France, perhaps it's a combination of a society far less tolerant than they believe themselves to be, and the pitfalls of multiculturalism?

Originally Posted by akv

....In the case of France, perhaps it's a combination of a society far less tolerant than they believe themselves to be, and the pitfalls of multiculturalism?

Consider another young country, America, (1860), our own civil war. The US population was aprox. 31,000,000 - US Census

It remains the deadliest war in American history, resulting in the deaths of 620,000 soldiers and an undetermined number of civilian casualties. Ten percent of all Northern males 20–45 years of age died, as did 30 percent of all Southern white males aged 18–40.

I wonder what the totals are by demographic, gender, age, etc., for WWI, WWII were for Russia, China, Germany, France, etc.

It's not just "multiculturalism" that divides us, it is just division.

Maybe Obama will finally give back NY to the natives. Lower Manhattan could use a few Casinos.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=243153

[akv]

Originally Posted by Wet Dog

It's not just "multiculturalism" that divides us, it is just division.

Sir,

As I understand it that is a key distinction between the USA and Europe. As an American my bias is for assimilation vs. multiculturalism. As a nation of immigrants in very simple terms our tradition welcomes productive immigrants from other lands who want to assimilate into our society, as opposed to multiculturalism which lets them in but keeps them living in their own enclaves. IMHO if you combine the latter with tough economic times it can be a powder keg. History has shown whenever some silver tongued devil needs a scapegoat for his rise to power, he just points out, " those people are to blame for all our problems".

I hadn't realized the percentage losses in the US Civil War were so staggering, especially in the South. I recall a theory that many prominent artists, philosophers and writers from the 1920's were Spanish, since we lost an entire generation of talented English, French, and Germans in the trenches of WW1.

I forget the author and the exact quote, but it was along the lines of,

" If you move to America, your children will be Americans, If you move to France you will never be French."

An oversimplification, but I guess we will see...

Originally Posted by akv

Sir,

As I understand it that is a key distinction between the USA and Europe. As an American my bias is for assimilation vs. multiculturalism. As a nation of immigrants in very simple terms our tradition welcomes productive immigrants from other lands who want to assimilate into our society, as opposed to multiculturalism which lets them in but keeps them living in their own enclaves. IMHO if you combine the latter with tough economic times it can be a powder keg. History has shown whenever some silver tongued devil needs a scapegoat for his rise to power, he just points out, " those people are to blame for all our problems".

I hadn't realized the percentage losses in the US Civil War were so staggering, especially in the South. I recall a theory that many prominent artists, philosophers and writers from the 1920's were Spanish, since we lost an entire generation of talented English, French, and Germans in the trenches of WW1.

I forget the author and the exact quote, but it was along the lines of,

" If you move to America, your children will be Americans, If you move to France you will never be French."

An oversimplification, but I guess we will see...

The author, I think was Pablo Neruda, assuming I'm wrong, but he did write some smokin' hot stuff.

I quess we're no longer a melting pot, but will forever remain a tossed salad.

[incarcerated]

See also: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...7&postcount=24

Note the black garb:

Groups of Tunisians and supporters hold Tunisian national flags as they demonstrate on Nice streets on January 15, 2011 southern France, the day after ousted Tunisian leader Zine El Abidine Ben Ali fled the country with his family. As Tunisia's former colonial power, France has a large population of Tunisian origin and Tunisian immigrants.

[T-Rock]

Sort of like Yankees that move South and want to tell everyone how they do things in NY, NJ, fill in the blank.

In Boone and Blowing Rock they're called Halfbacks

http://www.southeastdiscovery.com/so...assing-florida