Tests & School

[The Reaper]

I do not think that we suffer from a lack of education funding.

IIRC, we spend much more on it than other countries which get better results.

That has been flogged to death elsewhere on this board.

TR

[Pete]

Originally Posted by FMF DOC

.... It speaks to how desperately underfunded many schools are and how that results in too many students per class and too many classes taught per faculty member........

A few years back when my kids were in the county system I pulled together the figures on funding per student. This included the county, state and federal funds.

Each classroom of 18 students was pulling in just over $90,000 per year. The teacher, based on a lot of +/-'s was around $35,000.

So that meant $55,000 was going for other stuff. Building utilities, other staff, upkeep, other staff, supplies, other staff, transportation, other staff, etc, etc.

Yet whenever a budget cut comes around it's the classroom teacher that takes it in the shorts. Heaven knows the assistant to the assistant to the assistant to the vice toliet paper counter is vital to the smooth operation of the system.

The private school the little one goes to seems to get the job done with only $56,000 per classroom.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Pete

A few years back when my kids were in the county system I pulled together the figures on funding per student. This included the county, state and federal funds.

Each classroom of 18 students was pulling in just over $90,000 per year. The teacher, based on a lot of +/-'s was around $35,000.

So that meant $55,000 was going for other stuff. Building utilities, other staff, upkeep, other staff, supplies, other staff, transportation, other staff, etc, etc.

Yet whenever a budget cut comes around it's the classroom teacher that takes it in the shorts. Heaven knows the assistant to the assistant to the assistant to the vice toliet paper counter is vital to the smooth operation of the system.

The private school the little one goes to seems to get the job done with only $56,000 per classroom.

Another thing to consider. When we were stationed in NJ, we lived in a little township called Indian Mills that had one elementary school, and one middle school, and it's own superintendant. The next little town over was called Tabernacle, same thing... Next town over same thing. So in a radius of about 5 miles you had no less than 6 little school districts all with their own superintendant and staff that goes with it. The high school was in a district all its own.

Our property taxes were ASTRONOMICAL. Every time all of us got together and proposed that in order to better utilize the school system, one district be cobbled together out of the 6, we were shot down every time. Because low and behold the administration would fight it like nobodies business.

No one can make me believe education is underfunded in this nation. If the administrators were as concerned about education as they say they are, they would cut all the pork out of the administation budget, not the class room budget.

One more thing we have to thank unions for.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by afchic

No one can make me believe education is underfunded in this nation. If the administrators were as concerned about education as they say they are, they would cut all the pork out of the administation budget, not the class room budget.

One more thing we have to thank unions for.

Pork exists at many levels. At a certain university which shall remain nameless, a department had grant funding - and time was running out. So back in the day when large plasma-screen TVs cost $10,000 or so, the department used up the money to buy one. It was placed in a computer lab on the wall where all the students could see it.

Except...classes weren't taught in the lab. Students did individual work there. The screen was never used, except to display a screen-saver.

This was not a choice by administrators - rather, faculty made the decisions and the administration signed off on them. There is no union there. None. And there is, arguably, waste.

Perhaps the real question is what we want students to learn. A college degree is fine - but what should it encompass? (That's purely rhetorical. There are lots of opinions on that one.)

Maybe it is just in the nature of any bureaucratic organization to create waste.

[Mobelizer]

This is a very insightful thread.

/*A little about myself. I am now 21 college student with 3 more semesters to go for my BS. I was born in Germany and I also went to a German school. Throughout the years, I was a fairly average student. A teacher in 4th grade told my mom I would not make it to the Gymnasium. She fought for it and I went to the 5th grade of the gymnasium. up the 11th grade I was still just an average student and I had a problem with pretty much every subject .

I moved to NC in 2004 and I went to a local HS. Good school, a mixed crowd (a big percentage of students being military dependents). I started to make better grades, based on study guides and example tests given by teachers. It was simple memorization of the questions on the study guide or any type of handout before the test. Multiple choice tests (even in math) made scoring higher grades even easier, and I used to be really bad at math....
Now with 3 semesters to go and a decent GPA I'm actually having to work alot harder for those grades to a point where I think I'm not going to make it.It feels like I'm in the German secondary school system again */

I would also like to add an opinion on this.I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned already, and I will take the risk of regurgitating.

I believe that a great deal of education comes from home. What a child experiences from early on, at home, is a primer for his or her future years.

On another note. I do believe testings/standardization can be a problem from early on also. Students are given all the information in study guides to get a good score on a test. (generalization)

My concluding $0.01. a students success in class also has to do with mindset.

I know these arguments seem a bit thrown together. I'd be glad to further elaborate my arguments.

These are just my few cents based on the experiences I've made, as a student, in the school system in Germany and here in the US.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Mobelizer

I'd be glad to further elaborate my arguments.

I, for one, would very much like to see what you have to say.

[Mobelizer]

This might me more of a problem down the road once you get to college or so. I was only In high school from 11th and 12th grade.
But I do believe the students are "hand-fed" too much, and this might every by county/state. In most classes I've been , students(that includes me) were given everything to make at least a B on a test or Quiz. Study guides were given out in English and history that just had to be memorized. If you knew the study guide, you knew the test. If you didn't study those, that's your own fault. Same with math. Example problems comparable to test problems were given and solved.

I totally agree with formula sheets for math and physics at times, because there are alot of them, especially in physics. I think students have to get away from study guides, and make their own. I also think , teachers have to get away from study guides to an extent that they don't give the students some questions, help them answer those questions. and then have the same exact questions on the test.

This might be different in AP classes....as a matter of fact I had AP German and AP French and it was different. It was more challenging , and I think that's how classes should be. I think you deserve an A in a class if you did your own work at home, sat there in studied the books, instead of just memorizing the study guides.

This doesn't prepare one for college even though study guides exist in college also but not as detailed.

I've seen some of my fellow students from high school come back from one of the "big universities" after one semester...might also have to do with mindset.

I do admit, I was and I still am a lazy student sometimes. I could have gotten better grades in high school. If I was able to get decent grades with the least amount of work then I took that option. In high school I was less motivated to study than in college and that might be due to the fact that I pay for college and I go to an institution to study in my field of interest.
At times I see how risky it can be to be lazy, as it is not feasible at all when being a senior in college.

Another problem I see, and that's just my opinion: At times the teachers get too close to the student or vise versa. There should be a healthy mentoring relationship as well as a good channel of communication between the two.
But I've seen it where teaches hug students, or students hug teachers and talk on a very informal level. I just think that doesnt belong in the class room.

What would an educator's opinion be? Or in fact the opinion of anybody reading this thread.

[stickey]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

I do not agree that objectifying and infantalizing one's students is a sustainable approach to teaching.

Nor do I. That was within the first few weeks of my internship and have learned a lot. I walked away from those 16 weeks having learned more than I ever thought i would or expected from that experience.

As far as what i have in my profile: "aka babysitter", it refers to the students with chronic behavioral problems, those with needs that go beyond the classroom. Needs that cannot be addressed in a classroom setting.

[stickey]

Originally Posted by Richard

Here's my opinion on the subject from my blog:

http://sfoda726.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

Point taken.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Mobelizer

What would an educator's opinion be? Or in fact the opinion of anybody reading this thread.

I taught computer science at the undergraduate level at a large public university for a decade - so perhaps I can add a couple opinions.

By and large, my observations from my perspective are similar. Courses should be challenging, and an A should represent excellence rather than the grade handed out to everyone who can warm a seat.

But there is a fundamental problem - it's called retention. The public university I was at - and I get the strong impression this is a wide-spread problem - was expected to take turn out successful graduates. That means, they were expected to take in those who were admitted and get them out with a degree in 5 years or so. A student who made low grades, which were D, F, or WF (withdraw failing) had to repeat the course, and might have a GPA that would require academic probation or expulsion from the university. One other thing - at the time, the university admitted almost everyone who applied. As its gotten closer to its goal in terms of numbers of students, the admission standards have tightened a little.

One course I taught was Microcomputer Applications. The main OS was Windows 98 at the time, if I recall - and people weren't quite as familiar with software as they are today. Still, it was a large course. So let us consider how I taught it and the interesting consequences of my standards. (Note: pink denotes sarcasm)

There were 3 tests, each 25 questions, multiple choice. Each test covered 4 chapters from the text, open book, open note, questions were guaranteed to be from the book, and were sequential through the book. In other words, if a question from chapter 2 showed up on the test, the student could be certain that nothing from chapter 1 would appear on the remainder of the test. The course grade included the top 2 test grades, with the lowest test grade dropped. And, of course, the material was covered in class.

There were 5 homework assignments, 2 from Word and 3 from Excel. Each assignment was simple. In addition, I did the entire assignment, from beginning to end, in class in every instance. If students had questions, I answered them. If students wanted to see the whole thing again, I did it. All of this in a 50 minute class...

And there was a project, which consisted of creating a web page with 3 links. Web software wasn't quite as good then as it is today, but it was still a simple assignment. Again, I did the entire assignment in class so students could see how it was done.

Pretty low standards, I would say.

Still, about 10% of the students failed. Not sorta-kinda failed, not barely failed - no, they did a spectacular job of it. Final averages of 30 and below, for example. And neither I nor my grader were harsh.

For those unable to deal with such standards, I gave substantial extra credit for just coming to class.

Ahh, but I promised to mention consequences, didn't I?

The university was concerned about the retention problem, then as now. So they hired a consultant who had worked as the vice-chancellor at U.T. Austin. And the gentleman wanted to see me and my superior.

And what was he concerned about? It seems that the 10% fail rate was...ahem...too high. The issue of low standards didn't matter - all that mattered was retention.

Fortunately, the course was no longer part of the core curriculum at the time, and hence was smaller and less important. So we all shrugged, agreed it didn't matter too much any more, and didn't worry about it. But the point is this - the university pandered (and panders) to the weakest students in pursuit of retention. It's hard for me to discern how one can maintain standards in such an environment.

This is not fair to the good student who wants to strive and learn. Nor is there an easy solution, given the politics of the situation.

Now this does not mean that students cannot learn - and learn quite a lot - in such an environment. But it does mean that the standards, the motivation, and the desire must come from within. If I may say so, the example of the Quiet Professionals (along with many other good people) is worthy of emulation.

[Mobelizer]

Originally Posted by nmap

I taught computer science at the undergraduate level at a large public university for a decade - so perhaps I can add a couple opinions.

By and large, my observations from my perspective are similar. Courses should be challenging, and an A should represent excellence rather than the grade handed out to everyone who can warm a seat.

But there is a fundamental problem - it's called retention. The public university I was at - and I get the strong impression this is a wide-spread problem - was expected to take turn out successful graduates.

I'm attending a public university locally.

/* SIDE NOTE: there are 2 universities in my city. The public one I'm enrolled in right now and a private one. I didn't see the point in paying $10000, after scholarships, a semester for generally the same education I can get at a public university. The first year I pretty much didn't have to pay a dime. This year I'll have to pay some tuition due to budget cuts. Plus I'm doing research which I don't think I would have been able to do at the other school. */


The computer science department here is facing the issue of low enrollment.
College of course is a whole different ball game as high school, there are although similar issues. But I think high school should prepare students to work independently and be self reliant ,so that later on in college their jaw won't drop. Learning how to study shouldn't be taught in college, but in high school.

Did the %10 of failing students have a real interest in the course/major?

Sadly I must say I've gotten used to multiple choice tests. I think failure rate would be even high if there weren't any multiple choice test but tests where you have no educated guess and have to come up with your own answer.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Mobelizer

I would say those %10 weren't really interested in computer science. But that was then and alot of things have changed in the computer science field.

The course was taught by the CS department - but learning a few windows applications is a long way from actual computer science! It was taught to the general student body, and did not count toward a CS degree. I agree absolutely that those who failed weren't interested.

And the tests in actual CS classes were free-response. For example, programming tests gave a programming problem, and then required students to write the code to solve the problem. The test generally provided a method declaration for each class.

And you're right about things changing, too.

Now I will say that in the actual computer science courses - from programming through architecture and algorithms courses - that the standards were quite high. The CS majors were well prepared, and hence sought-after in the job market.

Are you learning JAVA and object oriented programming?

[Mobelizer]

Originally Posted by nmap

The course was taught by the CS department - but learning a few windows applications is a long way from actual computer science! It was taught to the general student body, and did not count toward a CS degree. I agree absolutely that those who failed weren't interested.

And you're right about things changing, too.

Now I will say that in the actual computer science courses - from programming through architecture and algorithms courses - that the standards were quite high. The CS majors were well prepared, and hence sought-after in the job market.

Are you learning JAVA and object oriented programming?

I learned JAVA as my first real language (can't really count COBOL).
programming methodology. Then the same language was used for Implementation and Design(a higher course in the sequence). As an introductory language they will introduce Python into the curriculum, which is easier to learn, and you can do more things with it. Right now I'm learning Data Structures, using Java as the main language. I'm also learning Scheme and programing logic. Also systems modeling and simulation. And the toughest course yet (everybody says that here) Computer organization and design (MIPS/Assembly).

I'm leaning C++ and C # on the side so I can code for my robot that I'll be using for my research.

[Mobelizer]

Tests in my CS classes are free response for the most part. Some definitions are tested via multiple choice.

I would say the standards in college are pretty good as far as how the classes are taught and the testing. I mean, PhD's are teaching, they have also done research or are actually still conducting research.

That is different from a High School teacher and students which has possibly only a BA in education with a respective concentration like the sciences or history etc.

The standards in high school though are not as demanding as they could be. Then again that's not taking into account most AP classes which I haven't taken. As well as some science classes that I didn't take.

But then if standards were to be risen, I'm sure failure rate would increase. So I guess the questions is how do you raise standards without increasing failure rate.

[Richard]

The standards in high school though are not as demanding as they could be. <snip> But then if standards were to be risen, I'm sure failure rate would increase. So I guess the questions is how do you raise standards without increasing failure rate.

This is a complex queston for which there is a world of studies and literature available. To keep it short, consider that many (not all) of the high schools in America today offer the following:

• A certificate of attendance for those students who fail to achieve the necessary graduation requirements as specified (e.g., fail Exit Exams, severe special ed, etc).
• A diploma for having met the state's minimum levels of competency for a high school diploma (generally a tech-based curriculum and probably ready for a tech school/community college but not yet ready for college).
• A diploma for having met the state's recommended high school program (>90% ready for college).
• A diploma for those having met an honors program (ready for college).
• A diploma for having met an AP program (ready for college).
• A diploma for having met an IB (International Baccalaureate) program (ready for college).
• Additionally, many areas allow capable high school students who are Jrs/Srs to either concurrently dual enroll in courses at local colleges which give both high school and college credits or just enroll to take lower level college courses for college credit.

Even with all of these offerings, the same issues which have always been present - individual developmental delays, socio-economics, honest self-assessment, personal initiative or desire, and judgment - often preclude or interfere with any of the above from ensuring success in higher education.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02