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Old 04-06-2004, 05:41   #61
Solid
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Are you sure?
I was under the impression that it was because new streets had to be added ad-hoc to make space for new houses, at least in the case of London. Man, those streets are a bastige to navigate.

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Old 04-06-2004, 06:02   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Are you sure?
I was under the impression that it was because new streets had to be added ad-hoc to make space for new houses, at least in the case of London. Man, those streets are a bastige to navigate.

Solid
Sure? Nah. It's just what some old school teacher told us. But it sounds reasonable to me.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:44   #63
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Probably a combination of the two. I do remember reading where some changes were made because of urban combat after the French Revolution. Widened main avenues to make it easier to get troops down, so it makes sense they would have thought of the other as well. Rapid expansion always plays a role in screwing up a layout.
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Old 04-06-2004, 09:03   #64
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Roads were invented for the military. It makes sense, especially in the newer cities.
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:33   #65
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Originally posted by The Reaper
Several thousand more today than there needs to be.

Don't tell me we couldn't have made an air strike on that party while it was underway. They took several hours to finish.

The perpetrators, and those who are complicit, do not respond to the carrot, let us show them the stick, and make an example of them.

TR
I am catching up late, but agree with this strongly. It disturbs me that we still don't appear to have done anything, unless I am behind on my news.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:27   #66
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Out of curiousity: do you think that killing everyone in that crowd (however it is acheived) will serve to:
1) consolidate the anti-US feelings in that area by giving the 'martyrs' families more of an incentive to fight the US;

or

2) maybe make everyone dislike the US more, but also fear them enough to not try something like this again?


Thank you,

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Old 04-06-2004, 12:27   #67
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Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I am catching up late, but agree with this strongly. It disturbs me that we still don't appear to have done anything, unless I am behind on my news.
If you are behind, then so am I. I was hoping to hear of a major smackdown before we depart the country again (Turkey this time):

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Old 04-06-2004, 13:28   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid
Out of curiousity: do you think that killing everyone in that crowd (however it is acheived) will serve to:
1) consolidate the anti-US feelings in that area by giving the 'martyrs' families more of an incentive to fight the US;

or

2) maybe make everyone dislike the US more, but also fear them enough to not try something like this again?


Thank you,

Solid
In that part of the world, it is particularly important to be more feared than loved, although love is nice too. Some of those guys will never love us, so we should kill them and scare the $^(% out of the ones we don't kill.
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Old 04-06-2004, 15:22   #69
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OK, here's some news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Apr6.html

Marines Battle Enemy Fighters in Fallujah

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, April 6, 2004; 4:33 PM

FALLUJAH, Iraq, April 6 -- U.S. Marines seized portions of this volatile city Tuesday and vowed to remain here until they have rid it of Islamic extremists, Saddam Hussein loyalists and common criminals who they said operate freely here.

Operation Vigilant Resolve, which began early Monday morning, inserted more than 2,000 U.S. troops and hundreds of armored vehicles into this city of 300,000, which has been a frequent scene of anti-occupation violence. By early Tuesday, one Marine regiment had taken control of a large industrial zone in the southeast quarter of Fallujah and a second regiment was operating on the north side.

The fighting continued throughout the day Tuesday, with armored columns of Marines engaging insurgents as U.S. helicopters flew overhead.

Since the fighting in Fallujah began Monday, the U.S. military has said at least five Marines were killed in Anbar Province, which includes Fallujah and the volatile town of Ramadi, news agencies reported. But there were no immediate details on where and how they died.

"We are solidly ensconced in the city, and my units are stiffening their grip," said Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, commander of the 5th Marine Regiment, which set up a command base in an abandoned soft-drink factory. "We are prepared for. . . everyone who wants to come out and fight us. We will break their backs. We will drive them out."

In addition to those killed, 11 Marines have been wounded since the operation began, Marine officials reported. At least 10 enemy fighters were reported killed and 15 captured, including several foreigners believed to be from Sudan.

Officials said the Marine units have encountered well-armed and orchestrated resistance by local guerrillas. Snipers fired repeatedly at patrols from rooftops and windows, and others lobbed mortars and rockets at military convoys and bunkers dug around the perimeter of the city, 35 miles west of Baghdad.

"As soon as we pulled up, they started shooting at us," said Lance Cpl. Jamil Alkattan, 23, whose unit entered the city at 2 a.m. Monday. "There were mortars, rockets and bullets flying everywhere. They were definitely waiting for us. It seemed like everyone in the city who had a gun was out there."

While Marine officials said they had taken control of the southeastern industrial zone, apparently outnumbered local fighters in residential areas waged hit-and-run attacks throughout the day Tuesday, firing in small scattered groups at U.S. patrols that spread through the otherwise deserted city in Humvees and on foot, searching buildings, taking positions on rooftops and engaging in running street battles.

One company commander said that as his squads moved through residential areas, they were fired on from inside a mosque, while snipers took potshots at them from numerous hiding places. Many enemy fighters were dressed in black and had scarves wrapped around their faces.

"As soon as we crossed the line [from the industrial zone] there was a huge change in tone in the people, a real uneasy feeling," the commander said at an early evening briefing. "Little kids made roadblocks and [insulted] us."

U.S. ground forces responded with barrages of machine-gun fire, and Cobra attack helicopters and AC-130 gunships fired down on small bands of guerrillas who immediately dragged away fallen comrades, making casualty counts impossible, U.S. officers said. Sporadic bursts of gunfire and the soft booms of mortar rounds continued all day and into the evening Tuesday.

Most shops were shuttered, but the patrolling Marines found one where machine guns were being fabricated. All schools and government offices were closed. The Marines imposed a dusk-to-dawn curfew and banned all public gatherings.

"Some of the fighters are young guys, the equivalent of dope peddlers, who do this for money. Others are holy warriors willing to die for a cause," said Capt. Will Dickens, another company commander whose troops were fired on repeatedly. "The die-hard [suicide fighters] just stand up in the open, fire from the hip and stay there until they kill or are killed."

But Dickens and other officers said they were under strict orders to avoid inflicting civilian casualties and not to return fire until sources of attack had been pinpointed. "We are not using artillery or big guns," Dickens said. "We don't want collateral damage. . . . The way to win the war on terror is with your boots on deck."

The Marines' mission, although planned for weeks, was given new urgency and purpose by the March 31 slayings of four American security contractors, two of whose bodies were burned, hacked and hung from a bridge by jeering mobs.

"This is not retribution. This is not vendetta. This is about making the city livable so people don't have to live in fear of the thugs who have taken over the city," Byrne said. "This city has long been a haven for smugglers and bandits, a dumping ground for foreign fighters and bad guys. No one ever took the time to clean it out properly."

The 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, which took over military responsibility for this area from the Army's 82nd Airborne Division late last month, arrived with the expressed intention of winning over the people of Fallujah and making the city safe enough for badly needed services, jobs and development could be provided.

Some Marines said that during regular patrols in the city in the past several weeks, residents had begged them for help and complained that they had no water or electricity and had seen no improvements under the U.S.-led occupation.

But Byrne said the March 31 slayings and several previous incidents, including an armed attack on a city council meeting attended by senior Marine officers, changed the nature of the Marines' strategy and made it imperative to root out the sources of violent resistance and crime.

Marine officials told journalists Monday at their base camp several miles from Fallujah that once they had established control of the city, they would begin selective raids in search of individuals and groups identified as terrorists or organizers of anti-American attacks, including the slayings of the US. security workers.

One Marine officer described that attack as a piece of "well-organized street theater" that was designed to "whip up a mob mentality." He said local Muslim clerics had issued an order saying the mutilation of the corpses was an offense to Islam, but that a locally made videotape of the attack was already selling in many shops.

Despite the fierce armed resistance to the Marine operation and the hostile attitude of some civilians, military officials maintained that the majority of Fallujah's leaders and residents are not opposed to the U.S. presence and are desperate for the services and investment that have been promised.

"We have a ton of money to spend in Fallujah, but we can't spend it until we have some security," said Capt. Edward Sullivan, a foreign-area officer at the Marine base near Fallujah. "The local officials are trying, but the thugs run the city. This isn't a backlash, but at some point you say enough is enough."
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Old 04-06-2004, 16:32   #70
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http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2...200404066.html

U.S. Forces Conducting Raids in Fallujah
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, April 6, 2004 – U.S. forces have been conducting raids in Fallujah and have captured a number of high-value targets, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Norfolk, Va., today.

Rumsfeld and NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer held a joint press conference following a seminar at the headquarters for NATO's Allied Command Transformation.

The secretary said Marines have cordoned off Fallujah, a hotbed of anti- coalition activity and the site of the killings and mutilation of four U.S. security contractors March 31. "(U.S. forces) have captured a number of people over the past 36 hours," Rumsfeld said. "The city is isolated. A number of people have resisted and been killed. And it will be a methodical effort to find the individuals who were involved."

Rumsfeld said the Marines will be discriminating. "Clearly, all of the people of the city of Fallujah were not involved in what took place," he said.

The secretary said he will listen to the advice of coalition military leaders in determining whether to add more troops in Iraq. He said he will not second- guess commanders in Iraq from Washington. "Both the president and I frequently ask the military commanders if they have all they need -- if they have what they need not just in people, but equipment and support," Rumsfeld said.

Army Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, and Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, commander of Combined Joint Task Force 7 in Iraq, have the ultimate responsibility for making recommendations to the civilian leaders of the military. "They are the ones whose advice we follow on these things," the secretary said.

About 135,000 U.S. troops are in Iraq, due to the troop rotation occurring now. The plan was for some overlap "so that you would end up transferring the knowledge and the situational awareness that's so important," Rumsfeld said.

Commanders are using the excess forces created by the overlap, Rumsfeld said.

"They will decide what they need, and they will get what they need," he said. "At the present time they've announced no change in their plans. But they could make such a request at any time, and needless to say … we've asked them periodically if they feel they have the capabilities they need, and that's something that they review on a fairly continuous basis."
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:11   #71
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R.L., Thanks for your news postings. I don't have cable or satellite dish and the news "blackout" from what used to be the big three (ABC, CBS, NBC) is starting to drive me nuts. Bill PS, ABC means "Almost Being Clear", CBS stands for "Can't Be Sure" and NBC is "Never Biased Channel".
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Old 04-07-2004, 09:37   #72
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I absolutely agree. Like the Soviet Union, the M.E seems to respond better to the stick than the carrot.
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Old 04-07-2004, 12:04   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Probably a combination of the two. I do remember reading where some changes were made because of urban combat after the French Revolution. Widened main avenues to make it easier to get troops down, so it makes sense they would have thought of the other as well. Rapid expansion always plays a role in screwing up a layout.
It was during the reign of Napoleon III. George Eugène, Baron Haussmann, was the urban planner and civil servant who redesigned Paris under the Emperor's direction. The wide crisscrossing avenues were partially designed to faciliate troop movements and to prevent the easy barricading of narrower streets during the city's all-too common riots.

Most older cities have narrow winding streets because they evolved to fill the geography of their environment. From the Renaissance through the Enlightenment to the modern bureaucratic era, in the Western World older communities tend to get torn down and planned grids put in their place. There has actually been a fair amount written in sociological and architectural literature, usually by leftists, about this as reflecting Western culture's desire to enforce itself on and control nature.

In the US, where most cities filled relatively empty space, the grids were there from the beginning. There are only some older cities in the Northeastern that don't share that legacy (at least in their old downtowns), such as Quebec City, Annapolis and the southern tip of Manhattan.

A fair number of Iraqi cities, especially those in the so-called Sunni Triangle that enjoyed huge growth in the Ba'athist era, are planned developments and don't look like typical older Middle Eastern cities.
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Old 04-09-2004, 13:47   #74
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I find it frustrating that our "overwhelming" response to the Fallujahns seems to have included a unilateral cease fire on humanitarian grounds and to permit exploration of a political settlement. My jughead brothers seem to be using a pretty flimsy stick.
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Old 04-09-2004, 13:55   #75
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...My jughead brothers seem to be using a pretty flimsy stick.
Are you sure its a stick at all? I am not.
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