Are we at war with Islam?

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

While I will not provide the specifics or the location, 20 years ago in Europe I serviced a protagonists dead drop that contained an instuction manual outlining terrorist training programs developed by a group not indigenous to Europe. Prior to this, no one was aware of any link between the two groups. So I would say that the train has been moving steadily for some time and that light you all see is the headlight on that on coming train.

Roger that, Sir.

Just to clarify, my response was only about public awareness. Maybe I used the metaphor badly, as you seem to use it rather as the threat being the train.

When I grow up I am going to make sense.

M

Originally Posted by jatx

I am not as concerned about current attitudes as I am long-term demographic change. It would take a prolonged period of frenzied breeding for Europeans to dig themselves out of this hole. I've run the population projections myself, and they aren't pretty.

Please send them to my e-mail when you have time, I'd love to have a look at the projections you've run.

Originally Posted by jatx

So if you don't make it to the US, take one for the team and breed wildly!

I will do my best.

M

[Solid]

Colonel,
I did not intend my post as a counter-argument to yours, rather than a confirmation of your (and my) viewpoints on the subject.

I'd imagine that many people on this forum either hated or were loathe to see the movie Syriana, but for me the movie was less a leftist indictment of the US and more simply spelling out the reality of the islam, oil, foreign involvement, CIA etc situation- that it is unbelieveably complicated, and that no matter what intentions are, no matter how hard plans and movements are thought out... they will more often than not have an unforeseen and possibly negative effect.

The reason I bring up Syriana is because I think the "everything is complex" point really resonates with this thread. While we have established that the US is not (yet) at war with Islam, but rather engaging in a fight FOR islam, we have not yet really addressed realistic solutions to push the muslim moderates into the majority. Given that everything is almost impossibly woven together, I'm interested in what approach people would take to winning the war for Islam?

Thanks,

Solid

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Solid

Colonel,
I did not intend my post as a counter-argument to yours, rather than a confirmation of your (and my) viewpoints on the subject.

I'd imagine that many people on this forum either hated or were loathe to see the movie Syriana,

You have a right to express whatever you want, this is an open forum. As far as Syriana I never expect anything out of Hollywood without understanding before hand there is going to be a strong bias twist to it depending on who is in it and who produced it. I rented it for the entertainment value of watching that slime Clooney get the snot kicked out of him.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

You have a right to express whatever you want, this is an open forum. As far as Syriana I never expect anything out of Hollywood without understanding before hand there is going to be a strong bias twist to it depending on who is in it and who produced it. I rented it for the entertainment value of watching that slime Clooney get the snot kicked out of him.

I really like a good movie, but in my limited experiences on this planet I am of the conclusion that any connection to reality and a Hollyweird movie is purely accidental.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

I rented it for the entertainment value of watching that slime Clooney get the snot kicked out of him.

Read a comment somewhere that from doing the movie he felt like he "survived" the same type of treatments as POWs. He is such an idiot.

[Cincinnatus]

Some of these bozos are so pampered it's astounding. I saw the making of the movie thing for, IIRC, "City of the Dead", wherein Matt Dillon (I think that's his name) was talking about how arduous the filming was. They were in Cambodia and " we didn't have air conditioning, except in our dressing rooms."

Russell Crowe made a similar comment about filming "Proof of Life" - how difficult the trek was to the location and that they had to get up so early that he decided to just spend the night in his trailer rather than go back to the hotel. He clearly thought this was some sort of hardship and I remember thinking half the world would think your trailer was a palace.

Poor babies.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by Solid

... to push the muslim moderates into the majority.

The issue is - moderates are the majority, but the radicals at both ends control the media, public opinion, and guns.

[HOLLiS]

[QUOTE=Jack Moroney]As I stated earlier, I truly believe that Islam is at war with itself. QUOTE]

In the years that I have studied Islam and listened to opponents and proponents argue, I think your statement is probably the most exact description of what is going on.

600 years ago this happened in Christian's Europe, sectarian warfare broke out part in name of the reformation. Some of the conflicts then, are very similar today in Islam. Many of the Islamic countries suffer from poverty, illiteracy and despotic regimes that use religious extremism as a control over the population. Europe was not much different. The dark ages is named from a Western perspective, Islam is still in it's own Dark ages.

[gaijinsamurai]

As far as what is currently happening in Gaza and Lebanon, we are seeing the results of two successful fundamentalist groups (Hamas and Hezbollah), who have been able to gather national attention and support through their appeal as corruption-free and standing up to the West/Israel.
I can see why both groups have become popular; but with the current fighting, it is obvious which sides are going to lose: Once again, the Arabs will have a big black eye.
The Lebanese and Palestinians need to stop and ask themselves if fundamentalism will really get them anything. In general, the Arab/Muslim world needs to do some soul-searching as well. The Palestinians need to ask themselves if their tactics have gotten them anywhere, and they all need to ask themselves who their real enemy is.

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by gaijinsamurai

As far as what is currently happening in Gaza and Lebanon, we are seeing the results of two successful fundamentalist groups (Hamas and Hezbollah), who have been able to gather national attention and support through their appeal as corruption-free and standing up to the West/Israel.
I can see why both groups have become popular; but with the current fighting, it is obvious which sides are going to lose: Once again, the Arabs will have a big black eye.
The Lebanese and Palestinians need to stop and ask themselves if fundamentalism will really get them anything. In general, the Arab/Muslim world needs to do some soul-searching as well. The Palestinians need to ask themselves if their tactics have gotten them anywhere, and they all need to ask themselves who their real enemy is.

I think that is happening, especially when reading the comments of other Arab governments. Saudis were the first to come out against Hezbullah, though not mentioning their name. Tha Arab league is not mustering it's forces is a good sign. It may be the days of rogue terrorists that served foreign power's interests are ending.

Lebonese reaction has been pretty interesting. Maybe the Lebonese will finally carry out the UN resolution and assume control of all of it's territory.

Other report I read, stated some of the Arab countries are nervous of Iran's ambitions.

[Slantwire]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

Other report I read, stated some of the Arab countries are nervous of Iran's ambitions.

Wouldn't surprise me. While I have no doubt they'd love to see the Caliphate restored an Islamic world order, I doubt they want to see it run by Persians. Kind of like how the Soviets didn't really want the world brought to the Chinese flavor of socialism, "fraternal socialist allies" notwithstanding.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Interesting analogy Pinhead.

[gaijinsamurai]

I remember in the 1980's it was fear of Iranian power which lead so many Arab governments to support Saddam Hussein.
Actually, I think there are a lot of Arabs and Muslims who truly are moderate, and are embarrassed/disgusted by the current trends towards fundamentalism. They may still be nationalistic to some degree, and highly critical of some of the US' policies in the region, which is understandable. Those are the types of people we can have a diologue with, and will be the hope for a better future for their own people. I can only their voices will grow stronger in the future.

[CoLawman]

They may still be nationalistic to some degree, and highly critical of some of the US' policies in the region, which is understandable.

And what US policies in the region would you agree they should be critical of?