Are we at war with Islam?

[casey]

Originally Posted by smp52

How many of those idiots who scream and yell actually wind up taking the step and murdering/becoming a terrorist?

Well, I can think of 19 way back in Sept of 2001 here in the US, an unk number in Beslan, 9 + in Madrid, 4 last July in the UK, and then another 5 several days later, how many you looking for?????

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by smp52

I feel that men, who don't want to see a future beyond their local tribal tradtions have gravitated towards the revisionist salafist movements in order to assert their position by force. Plenty of folks yell and scream death to [insert infidel community here], but most of those situations seem to be fuelled more by a mob dynamic. How many of those idiots who scream and yell actually wind up taking the step and murdering/becoming a terrorist? From a few sources I've read/reading, people who make the act of actually killing vs 'going with the flow' of the mob and apathetically/passively/actively supporting the global jihad activities have different psychologies. .

.

As I stated earlier, I truly believe that Islam is at war with itself. Having said that I look at this movement more like a guerrilla campaign where those that are extremists are leading an insurgency to wrest control to copt the religion and move it back to the fundamentalist ideals in order to establish a new Caliphate. If you understand insurgencies and how they are structured, the overt arm will always be small and will conduct small operations with the greatest chance of success so that they can use those successes to draw new recruits to the movement. The attacks have to be splashy and successful as the psyop aspect is often more important than the tactical. I mean what can be more powerful than someone willing to show that is thinks nothing about dying for his beliefs? Behind those overt guerrillas are the support base of auxillary and underground which is huge. It provides all the resources, intelligence, leadership, communications support, the entire infrastructure. To be successful they cannot run around yelling "I am a terrorist, jihadist, or even overtly identify with the tenets of the movement if they are to be successful in building and maintaining their movement. Even those who are openly verbal are having their shots called for them wittingly or unwittingly. So you cannot judge the size of this movement by the number of those "expendable" guerrillas who carry out the attacks. You need to think more in terms of just how many folks needed to orchestrate those attacks in order to pull them off. This movement is international in scope and it is not, as the press and administration likes to call it, a Global War on Terrorism but a Global War For Islam which is part of the problem because for folks who think only in terms of GWOT they are missing the point. Terrorism is a tactic, but it is not the only facet in play here, but the overt choice of action that is displayed for public consumption.Right now Islam is at war with itself using their success against the infidels to show that they have to power to establish a new Caliphate and once that Caliphate has been established the war with the infidels will really get cranked up and we will move to phase III of guerilla warfare with the newly established Caliphate.

[Solid]

Colonel,
Given that Islam is at war with itself, with the extremist wahabbis/salafists fighting to wrest control to copt the religion and move it back to the fundamentalist ideals in order to establish a new Caliphate, would it not then be dangerous for the US (or any of us) to think of the GWOT as a 'war against Islam'? It seems to me that the more we make this war Us vs. Them, with no regard for the fact that the people we are fighting are not representative of all of Islam, the more we help the Salafists gain support for their cause?

If muslims think that if they are not to militarize with the salafists, they will be exterminated or forced to change, are they not more likely to militarize?

Sorry if the above sounds like rhetoric, those are genuine questions.

Thanks,

Solid

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I never said it was a Global War Against Islam but a Global War For Islam waged by muslim fundamentalists using everything and anything they can to show the non-fundamentalists that the non-Muslim world is powerless to stop them. It will only become a Global War Against Islam if and when the fundamentalists do in fact co-opt the religion and purify it to suit their view of the world. At that point we non-Muslims are all infidels and present a target rich environment because co-existence between fundamentalists and infidels is not a possibility.

I also did not say that it was Us vs Them, what I said was that the depth of this movement goes far and beyond what you see on the surface with the overt acts of "terrorism". Like any counter-insurgency effort the Us has to use the military in a supporting role to allow the actions (economic, informational, diplomatic, cultural, etc) necessary to remove or resolve the real or perceived problems that are allowing those who would wish to co-opt the religion for their personal agenda. Military action by itself can only surpress problems and/or provide temporary security to allow other activities that are needed to resolve problems and create security to defeat the insurgency.

[smp52]

Terrorism is a tactic, but it is not the only facet in play here, but the overt choice of action that is displayed for public consumption.Right now Islam is at war with itself using their success against the infidels to show that they have to power to establish a new

Sir,

I agree, terrorism is a tactic used by the salafists to gain power and push aside others within Islam to get their word out. This is a power struggle within the community. At the heart of this, you're right, it is a war within Islam.

Like any counter-insurgency effort the Us has to use the military in a supporting role to allow the actions (economic, informational, diplomatic, cultural, etc) necessary to remove or resolve the real or perceived problems that are allowing those who would wish to co-opt the religion for their personal agenda.

Agreed.

Let me play out a quick scenario if you can bear with me.

As a muslim (I'm not, but just for the sake of this argument), everytime I hear a westerner talk about how "Islam is a violent ideology" it makes me uneasy. I'm a 28 year old shopkeeper who isn't really convinced the salafists have my best interest, but definitely see them winning ground. From my small corner of the world, it looks like they're winning and I'd rather be with the winners than the losers. Plus, the west thinks my Islam is violent. The discussion comes up on every news network. So be it then. They keep talking about 'Islam', but what do they know?

In India, you hear grumbles from the hindu fundamentalists (not all that different from the revisionist salafists in my opinion) that muslims are the problem. One group, as it seems, is attacking the overarching ideology (the west) while the other who have more daily interractions with the people is attacking the followers of it (countries where significant muslim non-muslim interraction takes place: India, Thailand, et. al)

What I'm leading to is as you mentioned the subtle tools of warfare (economic, diplomatic, political, cultural, etc) needs to feed the appropriate propganda to decouple the salafist structure from the population they are looking to co-opt (or did I misread this from your post). It may be one small thing, but anytime a newsflash goes across the screen saying "Islamic Terror", my attention as an ordinary muslim is drawn to it. Shia/Wahhabi/Salafist terror just doesn't ring the same bell drawing my attention.

How do we unleash a propoganda campaign and take the initiative by convincing those who feel we are fighting Islam, or losing? Is it a self defeating cycle in the media everytime the word "Islam" goes up, we draw more attention to the salafists than the other way around? The glorification of terrorist acts by the media for attention/validation is sickening. Within minutes a title is attached to the attack, 24 hour news networks have theme song, and we're inundated with redundant images with no real news value.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by smp52

How do we unleash a propoganda campaign and take the initiative by convincing those who feel we are fighting Islam, or losing? Is it a self defeating cycle in the media everytime the word "Islam" goes up, we draw more attention to the salafists than the other way around? The glorification of terrorist acts by the media for attention/validation is sickening. Within minutes a title is attached to the attack, 24 hour news networks have theme song, and we're inundated with redundant images with no real news value.

It is an education process and it is not just for those in school. The basic American is ignorant of anything outside of his ability to order a cafecrapochino in some phoney affected tone. Look around you, what are people concerned about? How many even know we have troops deployed in about 80 countries around the world? How many congress critters give a damn about anything other than getting elected/re-elected and many of them on the backs of some pseudo campaign to support the troops without really understanding what the overall program is? How do you instill patriotisim in Americans when the colors they care most about are not red/white and blue but the bottom line colors of black or red? How do you tell Americans that folks out there want them dead because their very freedoms that they all take for granted , which are being paid for in blood/disease/injury by folks in uniform, are a threat to their maintaining power over their own manipulated masses? Who do you get to deliver the word? Politicians-no one trusts them. Teachers-most have been liberalized to the point that any conflict, including spit balls in class, is unwarranted. Clergy-many have their own issues that over shadow their ability to deal with reality. The media-well we all know about the media. So you tell me, you want to have a propaganda program start by defining the target audience. You will not find a single audience by multiple audiences and each message needs to be tailored to reach them. Propaganda is not the answer, education is, but good luck finding the proper conduit and context. So look within yourself, how did you arrive at the conclusions you did? Perhaps that is the place to start.

[smp52]

Thank you, Sir. Your insight and thoughtful explanations are appreciated. An honest education is fundamental and I understand the process will never stop. The more I learn, the more I realize there is a lot more I don't know. I'm definitely here to learn and keep the education process going.

[CoLawman]

So look within yourself, how did you arrive at the conclusions you did? Perhaps that is the place to start.

Colonel, I believe this would make an excellent thread. It caused me to stop and think. And there is no quick response. Provocative question.

Are we at war with Islam?

I believe that Islam is at war with the entire world. The bombings in India underscores this premise. Off the top of my head; The US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, England, Israel, Spain, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Indonesia, India and Somalia have suffered the effects of this unconventional war.

Then you have the Kofi Annan constantly siding with the enemy. Yesterday he declared Israel's actions terroristic. He is a despicable human being that is no better than the terrorists he advocates for.

Ahhh.....just in Israel bombs Beirut International Airport......Standing by to see what Syria and Iran do now.

COL Moroney, we are on the same page. (it seems)

Always interesting to read your posts.

Thanks!

M

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Martin

COL Moroney, we are on the same page. (it seems)

Always interesting to read your posts.

Thanks!

M

Martin;

You are kind of on the front lines of things. Some of your larger cities, from our understanding of the news, have some big problems with newer Muslims.

With all the talk of "Eurabia" it gives the US a little more time to look at things.

I wonder how many E & E plans of Europeans include the phrase "United States"?

Pete

Originally Posted by Pete

Martin;

You are kind of on the front lines of things. Some of your larger cities, from our understanding of the news, have some big problems with newer Muslims.

With all the talk of "Eurabia" it gives the US a little more time to look at things.

I wonder how many E & E plans of Europeans include the phrase "United States"?

Pete

Pete (I think you told me not to call you Sir before),

I have a hard time imagining that many E&E plans have been created. I know mine has it, and that of my best friend.

As it stands in this argument, I am furthering reading up to better "wargame" (speculating about possible courses of action for both sides), but I am a little restricted. And as Roycroft pointed out to me, it may not be the best idea to put up for public discussion.

I don't think it is primarily a problem of newer Muslims, at least in Sweden. Here I reckon that it is my age-group, and a little up, that is of greatest concern regionally. Equally important is western self-denial.

M

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Pete

Martin;

You are kind of on the front lines of things. Some of your larger cities, from our understanding of the news, have some big problems with newer Muslims.

With all the talk of "Eurabia" it gives the US a little more time to look at things.

I wonder how many E & E plans of Europeans include the phrase "United States"?

Pete

I'm not sure if this was posted before, but it speaks to your concern:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

Personally, I believe that the genie is out of the bottle in Europe. There will be a marked change in what Europe "means" within our children's lifetimes, narrowing our set of Western-minded allies and leaving the US even more alone in its defense of core Western values.

Originally Posted by jatx

Personally, I believe that the genie is out of the bottle in Europe.

For some. I think the conversation topics around Europe make it very clear that it is not something that has gained force yet. There is growing awareness and a little bit more search for answers, while also marked understanding and anger as can be witnessed in the Netherlands, France, and elsewhere. Yet the train is not moving fast enough.

Originally Posted by jatx

There will be a marked change in what Europe "means" within our children's lifetimes, narrowing our set of Western-minded allies and leaving the US even more alone in its defense of core Western values.

While I still say the future is not yet set in stone (give it five years to be certain), I think that is the most likely end state.

M - Longing to come over to the US side of the pond.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Martin

For some. I think the conversation topics around Europe make it very clear that it is not something that has gained force yet. Yet the train is not moving fast enough..

While I will not provide the specifics or the location, 20 years ago in Europe I serviced a protagonists dead drop that contained an instuction manual outlining terrorist training programs developed by a group not indigenous to Europe. Prior to this, no one was aware of any link between the two groups. So I would say that the train has been moving steadily for some time and that light you all see is the headlight on that on coming train.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Martin

While I still say the future is not yet set in stone (give it five years to be certain), I think that is the most likely end state.

I am not as concerned about current attitudes as I am long-term demographic change. It would take a prolonged period of frenzied breeding for Europeans to dig themselves out of this hole. I've run the population projections myself, and they aren't pretty.

So if you don't make it to the US, take one for the team and breed wildly!