Bush Authorized NSA Eavesdropping in U.S. - Page 4

12-21-2005, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid

As for being communist or socialist, I suppose that when compared to the Republican party, the Dems are. When put next to most other left-wing parties, however, the Democrats look positively right-wing. In fact, the entire party spectrum in America is relatively right-of-centre to begin with.

I agree, but think that the Democrats understand that using reform is a staged process, which is why they can't go straight out shouting for revolutionary changes. Burn the house down while you sleep, so to speak. You have to get people to not raise the buttstocks to their shoulders, it's not enough to just switch leadership and national course.
I don't think they care to cut the reform process short.

Geeks, though, are an interesting bunch. Much varied in political affiliations and seems a bit different, IMO, than other groups. Anyway, some of the vocal ones call the MSM right wing... a bit of a contrast.

Martin

BMT (RIP) · 12-21-2005, 16:04

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...commentary-hed

BMT

rubberneck · 12-21-2005, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMT

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...commentary-hed

BMT

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."- Mark Twain.

In this case it was never about what was right or what was truthful, it was all about what hurts the President and his agenda the most.

longrange1947 · 12-22-2005, 09:23

I think he is also laying the ground work fo rwhen it comes out that Clinton di dthe same thing but on a much "Grander Scale".

Of course right now the Dems will ignore this because it may cost President Bush a few "popularity votes".

BMT (RIP) · 12-22-2005, 09:34

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...2610-7772r.htm

Clinton used it against gangs in housing projects.

BMT

longrange1947 · 12-22-2005, 09:45

Hmmm, good! Cats out of the bag.

NOW how are the dems and jerk offs going to handle this?

12-22-2005, 11:55

The Independent: Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey

Not good...

Martin

**Peregrino** · 12-22-2005, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

The Independent: Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey

Not good...

Martin

One of the differences between citizen and subject. Might also explain how "1984" came to be written by an Englishman. It's just another good reason to encourage vigorous but rational debate whenever any government seeks additional police powers. Britian is already pretty far along the "slippery slope" that pro-government/police advocates of population control measures would love to force the rest of the world down. Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with the NSA monitoring discussed in this thread. I am personally satisfied that the decision was made after complying with all due process and undergoing appropriate judicial review. I simply want to ensure that the rights of the individual are given the same weight as the rights of the collective. Anything else is tyranny and totally unacceptable. My .02 - Peregrino

sf11b_p · 12-22-2005, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

The Independent: Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey

Not good...

Martin

There are things you can do that hinder the ability of cameras to read a plate. When/if they begin to place "black boxes" in vehicles there will no doubt be a fix for that too.

longrange1947 · 12-22-2005, 13:19

Martin, I don't see how that is workable, except to note that I am interested in lic # XXX-XXX where has he been in the last two years. To "monitor" and to record is too different things. It is like recording the thousands of phone calls everyday but only "monitoring" those calls made by people of interest or those calls with key words.

Quote:

When/if they begin to place "black boxes" in vehicles there will no doubt be a fix for that too.

Already there.

Just my opinion. I think the news papers are again blowing things out of proportion.

With all the cameras in use today, a fair record of your daily activites occurs right now.

12-22-2005, 14:37

Peregrino, completely agree.

LR, I have an inherent disdain for governments that try to become stronger than the people. That they cannot monitor everyone is good, but it is also slightly beside the point. They only need to monitor and pull up records for persons of interest and without being stopped in the process. The scope of this and the long user list (LEO and intelligence services) is disturbing as it brings down oversight.

Not directed at you LR, no offence intended, just venting what I've thought for a long time: Though personally, in regards to this last bit about the Brittish, I think it's an excuse for closing your eyes to who the enemies are. In Sweden, some organized criminals walk free not because the LEOs don't know who they are, but because they cannot touch them.

Almost the same thing with Islamist extremism, the point is not that the country exists to support the government and that the government should care for and decide what the people should do. People have eyes, people talk with each other. The extremists have friends and they have for years put up posters, newspapers, authored books in the Old Country of the Crown, and those who received those messages did nothing to carry the message forward. They did not protest the hatred, and when the hate spasmed, only under threat did some bemoan it. Then they acknowledged their allegiance in polls, that it is not with us.

We are the people of these nations and we, at least some of us, become government and we interact with government. The government only knows what we tell them. Government is here to perform a function, it is not here to keep records on whether I think Göran Persson is utterly incompetent (which he is) and act upon that to preserve itself. We are here to bear our responsibility to care for ourselves and our security as we see fit. Government provides the common security for us, not against us.

How about we take this moment of alleged commitment against the wretched filth and stop accepting meth labs to be created within our borders - give half the money seized to the police department who put them out of business -,that we look our politicians dead in the eyes and force them to answer just what they have done for our countries today. Look through business records, visit them, do they hire illegal aliens? Fine them, shut them down. Aliens need to support themselves. Then ease up on the restrictions and let willing people work their asses off.

Talk to the friends of extremists, find out where they stand on this little issue of Armageddon and demand that they prove it. And ask the Europeans to get a damn spine and recognize that there is a difference between freighting terrorists in LearJets and engaging in oil bartering with Iran and Sudan, and it is not in their favor. Do it openly.

I have no doubt that we can get rid of these menaces without compromising our dignity and freedom.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, and if so, please remove it.

Just my .02.
Martin

longrange1947 · 12-22-2005, 15:26

No offense taken, a healthy exchange of ideas is the first defense against dictators. I am not good at forming ideas into words and at times my intent and what comes out does not always match.

Do not get me wrong. I am not infavor of the continueing increase of survailance, cameras, and snooping. I am only stating that the info coming in is so overwhelming that the average citizen can not be monitored. A person of interest in my mind is a terorist or those in direct communications with a terrorist. I have info that 'butt lick jones' is making or has made contact with a sleeper cell in the last 24 hours or next 24, it would be nice to know where ole butt lick went, or is going. I am not interested in his rights, and right now they have more rights then we do.

Does this open up an area of abuse, yes. But it is our job to make sure that it is not abused and that it is used within the powers meant. If we were to worry about everything that could be abused then we would immediatrely outlaw guns.

My 2 cents.

**The Reaper** · 12-22-2005, 15:43

And cars. And alcohol. And tobacco products. Etcetera.

TR

Sten · 12-22-2005, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by sf11b_p

There are things you can do that hinder the ability of cameras to read a plate. When/if they begin to place "black boxes" in vehicles there will no doubt be a fix for that too.

But then you are guaranteed to be in "violation of the law". Setting you up to be picked up whenever the police want to.

one-zero · 12-22-2005, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

And cars. And alcohol. And tobacco products. Etcetera.

TR

and prayer/christmas in schools, sanctity of marriage...oops, sorry guys those are already out the window.
Really though, good points by all. Gents this is being blown WAY out of proportion. You guys can compare this to how "green berets" are portrayed as demented super-comandos in the press...we all know the truth, committed men doing their profession...same with this program. I hope we are all together at the same time for some reunion someday to speak of things which can't be written.

Merry Christmas to all,
1-0