M-14/M1A

Gene & One Zero,

I just found out today that the 14's will be used specifically in situations that will require "quick" follow up shots (what this means in a law enforcement situation is beyond me). They will also be the go to rifles used at night with a certain NOD made by ATN. I think we are heading into a world full of you-know-what, but, on the brighter side I won't be there when it happens.

You gentlemen wouldn't have any ideas on how to accurize a British L1A1 would you?

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Razor

Forgive the hijack, but this statement reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day. There's much ballyhoo over 'stopping power' and 'one shot kills' coming out of theater, and besides the Hollywierd influcence, I think another big reason is a significant lack of hunting experience in today's youth. Anyone that's hunted big game knows that even the 'one shot' larger hunting calibers (i.e. .308, 30-06, 7mm, etc) rarely put the animal down immediately. You can get a good sidelong shot that perforates both lungs, shreds the heart and fractures the shoulders, and you'll still follow a 50m bloodtrail to find the body before the animal bleeds out and stops. A buddy went antelope hunting last week with his .308, got a lucky frontal shot that hit low on her chest, split the sternum, lacerated the heart and just about field dressed her on the spot, and she still ran/jumped 25m before coming to a stop. Folks that don't hunt just don't understand the power of the will to live despite mortal wounds, I think.

I tried explaining this very point in a recent Firearms class and it went way over half of the classes head. I guess some people just don't understand what oxgenaited (sp?) blood does.

Originally Posted by MAB32

Gene & One Zero,

I just found out today that the 14's will be used specifically in situations that will require "quick" follow up shots (what this means in a law enforcement situation is beyond me). They will also be the go to rifles used at night with a certain NOD made by ATN. I think we are heading into a world full of you-know-what, but, on the brighter side I won't be there when it happens.

Be very very glad you are no where near this project. Because when one of your officers use's it in the capacity that they intend to use it in and it shits the bed. Money will flow out of your department like whine at the final super...

Good luck trying to change their minds.

[Huey14]

MAB32, I'll ask around for you. I haven't heard it been done, though.

Smokin Joe,

Yep, it sure will, and if and when it happens it will be posted here first.



Huey14,

I will be first to tell you that I have fallen in love with this rifle. It is accurate enough as a MBR, mags are inexpensive, it shoots darn near everything i feed it and have yet in 7 years experienced a malfunction that wasn't my fault. ANY info you can give me will be helpful. I am on FalFiles constantly looking for accessories and info.

Ahhhhh, sorry guys, don't mean to hijack the thread.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Ahhhhh, sorry guys, don't mean to hijack the thread.

Well after following this thread for days now all I can say is I'm going to drag my .30-06 M1 and myself out behind the shed and hide. Just something about that "ping" as the clip ejects out the top to make a person want to plink with it all day long.

An M14/M1A will be the next toy I go hunting for. I'll have to keep this thread handy.

[Buffalobob]

The only thing you left out was the rebedding of your stock. The M14/M1A is notorious for the bedding to go south on a moments notice.

We were out in the jungle and Bailey comes to me and says he needs to go back in and can I call for a bird. I ask him why and he says his bedding has "broken". Well, Jack Maroney and I had had a small difference of opinion back at Devens and as my punishment I was the range officer on Saturdays for the 10th Group markmanship team for some prolonged period of time so I actually knew what NM and M21 bedding looked like. So sure enough the bedding on Bailey's M21 was falling out. I didn't think we had enough det cord and C4 to blow a LZ for a bird so I just told him to take the scope off and we probably weren't going to be shooting very far in that dam jungle any way.

Thing was we finally get back to the rear and Bailey heads off to the Sniper School and they can't get his rifle bedded and cured in time for him to go back out with us and he misses a whole mission.

[Apto]

Gentleman,

I know this thread hasn't been replied to in while, but in an attempt not to open an unnecessary thread I will post my question here first.

I am currently building an M14 variant and I would like some advice on optics and some QP analysis on the build itself. Thanks in advance.

After a ton of research I have ordered a J Allen stock to increase accuracy. Originally, I was going to drop in my SOCOM 16 internals into the rifle, but I have been advised that it will not be able to accurately engage targets in the 800M range which seems logical.

I have spoken with the only company in the US that builds forged recievers and bolt assemblies, and will be finalizing an order with them shortly. I still have some issues with barrel selection though. I am currently leaning towards a chrome moly Chriterion 18.5. The PSG I have been talking to has explained to me that I would potentially be better off with a standard steel barrel, but he cannot seem to justify why it is better than a chrome moly/chrone lined barrel.

Finally, I am looking at a Mark 8 CQBSS 1.1x8 to top off then entire package. Anyone out there actually had any experience with this optic since it is fairly new? I understand it is expensive, but my sniper section is telling me I am better off spending equal if not more money on glass as I do the gun.

I am essentially looking to be able to accurately engage mid range targets with a weapon system that is not the the typical 7.62 AR. Any and all criticism to the build and/or optic is welcome/appreciated. Thank you.

-Apto

[SomethingWitty]

This is something I wrote a year ago for people that were willing what goes into making an M14 into a decent target rifle, and it was well received. All of the points are still the same...the M14 is obsolete as a competition arm, and you are much the wiser to not go down the expensive route of making one shoot. Throw all of the tricks at it, and it will only be as good as a 950.00 RRA A2NM. I keep mine around as a toy, a novelty, something to remind me of the good old days that I missed by a good ten years.

In the Beggining...

Twenty-five years ago if you went to Camp Perry, and surveyed the line you would have seen it bristling with match conditioned M14's in the hands of military shooting teams, M1 Garands in the hands of many civilians, and a few misguided individuals with AR-15's that were universally scoffed at for their delusion.

Somewhere in those twenty-five years, those misguided individuals began winning matches...a lot of them. And people began to pay attention; the Army Marksmanship Unit was the first military team to win with the mouse gun, and eventually everyone began to follow suit. With it's light recoil, and new bullets that could shoot 600 yards without being blown into the next county, the little mattel toy was universally easy to shoot. And it was even easier to make work. If you put a good barrel and freefloat it on an AR...it will shoot. Today the only thing that an M14 can do better than an AR, big or small, is in it's incredibly smooth buttstroking and bayoneting action.

Since then, the M14 has faded mostly into obscurity, only being used by a few die-hard fanatics, and former members of the old guard of Highpower. The All Guard, USMC, Navy, and other shooting teams still kept their M14's, but they gather dust until the Long-Range Prone matches, which is still a 30-cal domain as far as Service Rifle is concerned. However, the smiths that once kept these rifles in running shape have retired. The legalization of the M110 by the NRA for Service Rifle has also changed the game. The Army Marksmanship Unit set a new reccord for Long-Range Service Rifle this past year, and the other services will be using AR-10's at 800, 900, 1000 this year.

The zenith of the M14/M1A as a competition arm has long since past. So why should you ever go down the long and often expensive process to make this rifle shoot? Well you shouldn't. It's not a ballistic advantage, the recoil pushes you around the mat, ammo is more expensive, and it's just plain on harder to shoot.

But there are those like me that will not take our own advice; we are still endeared to our forefathers who shot 'real' rifles made of steel and wood. So we will travel the roads of the 30-cal Jedi, and hope that it leads us to spiritual enlightenment and nirvana.


My experience with the M14 starts about 3 years ago with one of the state guard shooting teams. I attended their shooting program as a civilian, and the only National Match arm we had was the M14. They were very nice rifles, with heavy titanium bedded McMillan stocks, Parkerized Kreiger Chrome-Moly barrels, and crisp 4.5lb trigger pulls. Shortly afterwards, I embarked down the path of getting one of these fine rifles, and learning to shoot it. Fast forward to just recently, in the 2011 National Matches. In the Springfield Armory M1A match, I fired a score of 198-13x, 92-1x, 95-2x, and some god awful score with 1x in standing with my M1A. If I had been paying a little more attention, and shot one more 9 on my target, instead of a 10 on the next target over, I would have walked away with a nice chunk of money. Even with my mistakes, I still had 17x's, more than any other competitor, and was the 3rd placing Junior shooter. Not bad for a really bad year.

So finally we get to the bacon; What does it take to make one of these rifles shoot? Well...you have to be perfectly consistent in every regard when you shoot it...but I'm not going to tell you how to shoot. I'm going to tell you how to spend money (again). Or you could just not do it in the first place.

The most important piece of equipment on your club is going to be the barrel. Makers like Douglas, Kreiger, and Satern all make heavy profile barrels for the M1A, and will chamber them to your liking. I have used both Douglas and Kreiger, and I prefer a Kreiger in Stainless Steel. Once again, cut rifling lasts longer than button rifling, and Kreigers are sure bets. With .308 Winchester, twist rates are not as important as they can be with other calibers. A 1:10 will shoot pretty much any bullet you throw at it; I've been happy with mine. Right now, my barrel has more or less a standard chamber. 175 Sierras loaded to mag-length jump quite a ways in mine. However, if I was to do it again, I would have the chamber cut for Sierra 175's to touch the lands when loaded to 2.80 aka magazine length. The 175 performs well at all distances, and I could still use the Berger 185 VLD or Boat-Tail Long-Range if I wanted an edge at 1000. Or if I really wanted an edge at 1000...I would build an AR10 and be done with it!

The powders that were favored 'back in the day' were IMR 4895, H4895, Reloader 15 (42.5-43grains with a Sierra 175 is the M118LR load), and IMR 4064. Varget should also work pretty well.

[SomethingWitty]

Part II

Now that we have a good barrel, we now need to fix all of the junk that hangs off of it. Most of this does not make the rifle more accurate, but rather prevents it from being less accurate.

Starting from the front, the flash-hider needs to be reemed to a larger diameter. A bullet strike or nic on the bird cage is no bueno. Making the hole larger provides peace of mind.

Now we move to the gas piston. The gas piston system is generally two piece in the standard equipment affair. Our rifle cannot have even the slightest chance that movement between these two pieces could cause an accuracy errror, so we need to combine the two into one. Once again, it's a security issue, and falls under the list of "things that might make a difference, but couldn't hurt." The USMC team got around this by welding the two pieces together, while the army had a neater looking, but no more effective process of screwing the two together. I am pretty sure there are multiple manufactures that sell already 'unitized' gas cylinders.

We are almost to the receiver, and we have the op-rod attached, and we look at the op-rod guide. It's that funky square piece of metal that fits inside of the spring that reciprocates the op-rod. If you pay close attention, you will notice that it's a square peg that is loosely fit into a round hole. It's perfectly adequate for use in a military weapon, but not very comforting in our target rifle. So we need to get a National Match Op-Rod Guide, which is doing what should have been done in the first place. We put our now round peg into our still round hole and feel much better about ourselves.

Now we can pat ourselves on the back for taking out some of the engineering flaws that those knuckleheads at Springfield Armory (Govt Edition) put into our rifle when they were selfishly thinking about producing the rifle in numbers, and not about our needs.

We still need to do the second most important thing, next to putting on our laser grade barrel. We still need a stock that will cradle our baby, and nurse it's way right into the X-ring. This means glass bedding an extra heavy stock in either fiberglass, or in wood. Mine is done in wood, and my next one will be done in fiberglass. We have pretty much one pattern of stock for CMP/NRA Competition, and are not allowed to use any of the newer 'tacticool' stocks. There is quite a range of quality bedding compounds. My gunsmith prefers the Devcon Titanium bedding compound because it is the most durable he has found. With Titanium, it is still possible to remove the rifle from the stock, and to put it back in without any harm. However, I do not remove my rifle from it's stock unless I am cleaning the gas system.

Bedding the rifle is probably the most labor intensive and difficult part of making an M14 shoot. It's not really laid out like a Remington 700 which is essentially a round tube. Not only does the receiver have to be bedded, but so does the lower/trigger group so that it fits tightly in the stock. It takes a lot of modeling clay to fill in the places that you do not want bedding compound. When the stock is bedded, a piece of cardboard is stuck between the lower lip of the gas cylinder, and the stock ferrule. This ensures that when the bedding sets up, that there will not be excessive tension on the barrel when it put into the stock.

We still haven't put sights on our rifle. On the standard M14 and M1A's, the sights are graduated in 1MOA increments for elevation and windage. However, in target shooting, a more precise sight with smaller adjustments allows us to better center the shot group. The NM 2/A sight group that we should use is a part that was originally developed for the M1 Garand. The windage screw/pinion has finer graduations of 1/2 MOA, and the elevation is still 1 MOA clicks. In order to get 1/2 MOA elevation adjustments, the hole in the hooded apeture is offset. It has an up and a down position. Rotating it from the down to the up position adds 1/2 MOA, while rotating it the other way takes away 1/2 MOA. So we can sometimes get away with just rotating the hood, or we may have to add a click, and then rotate the hood to the down position to get the elevation adjustment we want.

The front sight of our rifle can either be the standard GI affair, or the thinner bladed NM widget. Both are windage adjustable, and I like to use the front sight so that mechanical zero and real zero on the windgauge are the same.

Final Success

So there we have it. A 'real' wood and steel rifle that any hairy chested man and his father could be proud of. It shoots a 'real' round too, one of our good ole 'thuttys', and it will kick like a mule. Even on it's best days, it will only shoot as good as an AR. It will make you rock back and forth in standing. You will scoot all over your mat in prone rapid-fire. By the end of an 80 shot NMC you will be looking for the advil. You will look at your old man and wonder if his back problems, and crankiness all stem from US RIFLE M14, and you will be able to look him in the eye and say "I understand."

But even though it is a pain in the ass, there is nothing quite as cathartic as spray-gluing one of these rifles to your shooting coat and glove, and then pounding out a few cleans in sitting rapid fire at 200 yards with the old beast.

But Not Quite

If you get serious about chasing leg points with an M14, you best have at least 3 M14's...the one you are shooting that is going to break, the backup rifle, and the rifle that is in the shop because it's broke. Or you will realize your folly and buy an AR15 like you should have done in the first place.

[Peregrino]

Reminds me of a wiseass comment made by a diehard .30 cal shooter at a local match a few years ago. He was overheard sneering about "all the wussies shooting girlie guns". IIRC the comment that shut him up was "yes, but at least we're shooting manly scores". Given that he was > 60 points behind the leader (on a 500 pt. match) we didn't hear much from him for the rest of the day. FWIW - I'll keep my M1As and M1Gs for nostalgia, meantime I'm saving the expensive ammo and serious shooting for the AR platforms.

[SomethingWitty]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Reminds me of a wiseass comment made by a diehard .30 cal shooter at a local match a few years ago. He was overheard sneering about "all the wussies shooting girlie guns". IIRC the comment that shut him up was "yes, but at least we're shooting manly scores". Given that he was > 60 points behind the leader (on a 500 pt. match) we didn't hear much from him for the rest of the day. FWIW - I'll keep my M1As and M1Gs for nostalgia, meantime I'm saving the expensive ammo and serious shooting for the AR platforms.

I like my M14, and I still endeavour to shoot a 480/500 with it one of these days. It's more satisfying to do well with it as opposed to the AR, but when it comes right down to it, it is an inferior system. When it comes to chasing my Presidents 100 tab, or finishing out my Rifle Distinguished badge, the AR is where it's at.

I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot. Sierra also came out with a new 120 (might be 125) grain bullet that would work pretty good for 200 yards. It might make it easier, but even with all the tricks, it will never be as simple/easy as an AR.

The rack-grade configuration is probably the most useful configuration that an M14 comes in; Any of the other configurations, and you should have to have a certain GT score to even be allowed to carry one.

[frostfire]

[QUOTE=SomethingWitty;480979]I might build another one around the 155gr bullets in the future; the newer Sierra Palma bullet is much better than the old one, and it is easy to make it shoot./QUOTE]

I thought the .308 development essay that you posted mentions while the 155 rules at palma match, it does not fare too well out of a semi auto platform from lost MV

[SomethingWitty]

Originally Posted by frostfire

I thought the .308 development essay that you posted mentions while the 155 rules at palma match, it does not fare too well out of a semi auto platform from lost MV

The 155gr bullets are used in International Palma because that is what the rules allow for; US Palma rules do not have a bullet weight limit. As a result, a few people shoot the heavier bullets for their decreased wind deflection. The 185 Berger that the AMU uses in their AR10's is one of the best bullets out there. I shoot the 155's in my bolt-gun because that is what the international standard is right now, and shooting at the international level is my long-term goal. (If I am able to find time for it.)

There have been 155gr bullets that have came out in the last 5 years that are better than the old Palma bullet (2155). The newer 155gr Sierra (2156) will have identical wind-drift numbers at 2750fps as the 175gr Sierra has at 2600fps. That should be do-able with an M14, although I might take the step of having an under-sized gas-port, or a vented gas plug, or both.

Both bullets are still better (wind drift) than the standby 168gr bullet; However it is just about impossible to make the 168 not shoot...I am pretty sure I could put it in the case backwards, and still be able to clean the 200 yard target.

The thing that would merit chambering an M14 (or .308 across the course rifle) around the 155gr bullets, is that I would only have to buy one kind of bullet for all of my .308 rifles, and I could have reduced power loads for rapid fire strings, without giving anything up at 600 yards.

And the only thing that would merit shooting an M14 in an Across the Course competition is just to be different than everyone else; and with that in mind, I might paint my stock a nice vibrant bubblegum pink. And yell "GET SOME" every time the target goes down. At that point, I would be there just to remind everyone that I am having A LOT more fun than they are.

Back to being realistic; if I had access to a steady diet of M118LR, that's what I would shoot.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by SomethingWitty

The thing that would merit chambering an M14 (or .308 across the course rifle) around the 155gr bullets, is that I would only have to buy one kind of bullet for all of my .308 rifles, and I could have reduced power loads for rapid fire strings, without giving anything up at 600 yards.

And the only thing that would merit shooting an M14 in an Across the Course competition is just to be different than everyone else; and with that in mind, I might paint my stock a nice vibrant bubblegum pink. And yell "GET SOME" every time the target goes down. At that point, I would be there just to remind everyone that I am having A LOT more fun than they are.

Back to being realistic; if I had access to a steady diet of M118LR, that's what I would shoot.

That makes sense, at 600yards the 155 should perform still out of gas gun.

Concur with the M14 (M1A) in XTC matches. My HP coach actually went distinguished a 2nd time with his M1A. Being the proud "once a marine, always a marine" scout sniper honor grad that he is, he made it one of life's goal to master the M1A. Yes, $$$$$ of mod equal to another match AR and more $$$$$ of ammo experimentations.

When I first tried M1A though, I thought I found an instant ticket to master/high master. With that loooong sight radius, my offhand scores could not drop under 95.....but then my position during sitting and prone rapid was so destroyed with each shot to the point the scores were too embarassing to mention (it revealed so much slack/deficiency that when I transitioned back to AR my scores went up!). Since then I wanted to shoot HP service rifle in .308. Alas, the OBR is not allowed, although the SR25/M110 is

[SomethingWitty]

Originally Posted by frostfire

That makes sense, at 600yards the 155 should perform still out of gas gun.

Concur with the M14 (M1A) in XTC matches. My HP coach actually went distinguished a 2nd time with his M1A. Being the proud "once a marine, always a marine" scout sniper honor grad that he is, he made it one of life's goal to master the M1A. Yes, $$$$$ of mod equal to another match AR and more $$$$$ of ammo experimentations.

When I first tried M1A though, I thought I found an instant ticket to master/high master. With that loooong sight radius, my offhand scores could not drop under 95.....but then my position during sitting and prone rapid was so destroyed with each shot to the point the scores were too embarassing to mention (it revealed so much slack/deficiency that when I transitioned back to AR my scores went up!). Since then I wanted to shoot HP service rifle in .308. Alas, the OBR is not allowed, although the SR25/M110 is

How do you go double distinguished in Service Rifle? I am guessing he just got up the the level where he would be able to go Distinguished with it if he were actually elgible for Leg Points. Although, if they had rocker-bars for every different service rifle, that would be amusing to say the least...I would want them all, even if they did look ridiculous.

I still have 2 points to get; maybe I will do it with an M14 just so I can say that "I went Distinguished on the M14." Making it hot-pink would just be icing on the cake, and all of the strange looks would be worth it.

The M110 for Service Rifle was a silly move, and I understand part of the reason it was approved, but it is as much of a Service Rifle as an M24 is.