High Speed Chases

[CRad]

NoSlack might be right. There are more police than SF guys that's true and the budgets of all the cities combined probably make up more than SF gets for training but I'll bet more gets spent on training individual SF soldiers compared to the amount spent on training invidual officers.

Just the length of police training compared to the Q-course would make that true. Police don't go off on month long training missions. The police don't do the same kind of work as soldiers though so they don't need to ask the S-3 to spring for over $100,000 for airplanes for deployment or redeployment. (I think that's about the average cost of air to a training mission) I'm also guessing the police never asked the S-3 for a Grand for sunglasses and I know of one team that did exactly that.

The type of training SF needs as opposed to the type of traing the police require makes it hard to compare the two.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
One additional idea. The LEO’s place a .50 sniper rifle on each pursuit helicopter. As soon as the asshole bad guy is seen running from the blue lights a .50 round penetrates the engine block. If the BG runs and attempts to “hijack� another vehicle, the sniper then places one more .50 round through the BG.

I agree with NDD, running from the police should carry a HARSH penalty. But running away and placing innocent lives in harms way is inexcusable and should carry some severe ramifications.

I do not care about “getting tough on crime,� I want to see Americans get tough on criminals instead.

Team Sergeant

DAMN! Why didn't I think about shooting the block out with the BFR?. Great idea. Of course we'll have to get a Army dude to do the actual shooting.

[Guy]

Noslack71:

Do this simple math equation...

I land on the ground in Iraq the beginning of Sept. I speak with an SF A-team who states...

"One more month we are out of here, our year is up".

The majority of LEO's go home every night to momma...wife...kids...shower...mattress...boyfrien d...girlfriend...dog...cat...rats...etc.

Get my drift?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
DAMN! Why didn't I think about shooting the block out with the BFR?. Great idea. Of course we'll have to get a Army dude to do the actual shooting.

Heck the Coast Guard has been doing it to stop "Fast Boats" transporting drugs to US soil. If a Coast Guard E-3 can shoot out a fast boat engine I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

[NousDefionsDoc]

Crad,
Even you? Things weren't always like they are right now. Training doesn't mean money. You're going to measure training by dollars spent per trainee? How do you count the best training we ever did - 500 meters from the team room on the Mata Mile?

How are you going to count those countless hours when it was raining outside and we were in the team room doing IV or comms classes?

How do you factor in the "Hey, we're going to do a COMEX in the Uhwarrie, anybody want to go? And you send one, and he comes back and trains the rest of the Team?

How are you going to count the hour every afternoon the SGM spent in the Team Rooms talking? You know, that SGM with 5 tours in Vietnam?

I learned an awful in company-level hotwashes and sitting in the Master Key hootch in the afternoons drinking beer and diagraming on a white board with a magic marker.

Ever hear of hip-pocket training? Costs nothing. Very valuable.

I learned something new everything day I was on a Team. And tried to pass it on to somebody else. Still do.

Training is about attitude, not resources.

Training is a way of life on a Team. Its not for the LEOs I have known or by what I have seen them say here. I am sure there are exceptions.

[CRad]

For a minute, forget the Real World Missions and focus on the training missions. How much extra training do police officers get? When something above and beyond regular police duties jumps up, like the LA riots for example, how much extra training have they had to deal with that sort of thing? How much money is allotted to extra training? Combat drivng classes, riot control, sniper shooting etc?

Probably not much because it doesn't happen often. SF, on the other hand, needs to train constantly for every contingency because of the nature of the their job. They need the money they get and more (there's never enough) because they have to be ready for whatever they come across in whatever country they deploy to.

Soldiers act as medics, demo, commo, intel, weapons...

The police are police. Big difference.

[CRad]

Look at it this way NDD - Unless you are on the team and living the life you don't know what goes on with a team so you don't what the training is on a daily basis regardless of how many books written by insiders that you've read or how many years you've been married to an SF soldier. You either are SF or you aren't. I know what I see and that's it. I think the police and SF are two very different but equally importnat jobs and neither gets the amount of respect, money or training time they need.

So, from me you get a dual out look but not an insiders outlook.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Heck the Coast Guard has been doing it to stop "Fast Boats" transporting drugs to US soil. If a Coast Guard E-3 can shoot out a fast boat engine I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

The worst thing is I set up a test and exercise in Panama for that very thing. ST 4 came over and we did it.

Pilot - "Ok, let's shoot it."

BAM!

Pilot - "Holy shit! TIME OUT!"

Took us forever to find something that would cushion the recoil and not shake the bird out of the air. Great time was had by all.

[NousDefionsDoc]

How much extra training do police officers get?

How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

[GackMan]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I think a few well trained SWAT types could do the same with outstanding results. Think about it, an engine block at say 300 meters, think you could hit it from a moving helo?

TS

Ah yes, but could you get the local city council to approve this new “pursuit intervention SOP�?

You think it scares the sheep to see an AR mounted in a patrol car.

[CRad]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How much do they make happen? You can't wait for it to be sent from above like a gift. You have to go out and take it.

I know a couple of motivated individuals who work on their shooting skills right regular. High speed pursuit and riot training might be a little harder to arrange but thinking on it that could be not only creative but fun. I should ask our neighborwood watch block captain.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by GackMan
Ah yes, but could you get the local city council to approve this new “pursuit intervention SOP�?

You think it scares the sheep to see an AR mounted in a patrol car.

IMO it could be the wave of the future. It does not take a whole lot of training to hit an engine block from 300m no matter how fast the vehicle is traveling, and I’m sure the PD’s involved would have emplaced SOP’s as to when the engine block would be destroyed such as the BG car slowing to make a turn etc. The media impact would also be great as the asshole gets out of the car with a stupid look on his face as he only traveled 5 miles before he was reduced to being a pedestrian again.

As any LEO tool, used correctly it should not scare the sheep.

Team Sergeant

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
IMO it could be the wave of the future. It does not take a whole lot of training to hit an engine block from 300m no matter how fast the vehicle is traveling, and I’m sure the PD’s involved would have emplaced SOP’s as to when the engine block would be destroyed such as the BG car slowing to make a turn etc. The media impact would also be great as the asshole gets out of the car with a stupid look on his face as he only traveled 5 miles before he was reduced to being a pedestrian again.

As any LEO tool, used correctly it should not scare the sheep.

Team Sergeant

Question:

If a car is traveling at high speed (let's say 80 mph) and you take out the engine block, what happens to the driver's ability to control the car? I am not asking whether the engine will continue to provide power, but rather whether taking out the engine block is going to ensure a serious accident.

And I'm just asking. I don't know the answer.

[Guy]

RL:

Once a helo has the perp spotted. I would call off the ground pursuit...or least have them pull back.

Sooner or later the perp is going to either end up in a non-populated area or have to slow down.

That's when you take the shot.

AIO...Adapt. Improvise and Overcome.

[Ockham's Razor]

Great stuff here. However, before we go putting very large pieces of flying metal into engine blocks, which would indeed be very effective; how about electronic counter-measures? Such as being able to deploy a device either from the car, or placed on the road like stop sticks, Electro-magnetic pulse device, that would take out the car's electrical system and simply cause it to stop operating.

I know they are working on this technology, but have no idea how far along it is. Also, it would be a marked inprovement from the stop sticks, while effective, also causes the driver to lose control of the vehicle possibly causing injury to other motorists or pedestrians.

If put on the ballot, I would vote for the BFG initiative. Only if the Team Sergeant will design and staff the course for those who will be trained to use it.