Army approves full fielding of M-107 sniper rifle

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Gentleman,After that the weapon mis-fired every other round. I wanted to take that M107 and throw it in a ditch with an incendiary grenade. We learned the limitations of that particular weapon system early and I didn't really use it again unless we were overwatching a TCP and were planning on using it for stopping vehicles at 500m or so. It is also important to note that it was our experience that the API and Mk211 Mod 0 is very corrosive and if you don't scrub the shit out of your chamber/barrell every 10-20 rds or so you will get malfunctions (like I experienced). The army does need to provide snipers with a better cleaning kit for the M107, the half Otis half USGI kit wasn't cutting it. The real weak link was lack of solvents strong enough to break down the build up associated with the .50 ammo.

Cyclops:

Sounds familiar. Having seen enough new 107s being fired for the first time or with under 100 rounds through a barrel, I have noted that two of ten will probably do what yours did. Fire a few shots then fail to extract or feed. Believe it or not, the 107 is more reliable than the older Barretts.

The accuracy is unchanged. Poor to mediocre. I group M-107s with the guys using Mk-211 at 300 yards known distance and measure groups. About 3 MOA with the Mk-211. About 4 with M-8 API and 4 plus with M-2 Ball. Have done this over enough years to believe my statistics.

That M-8 API that seems to be the norm these days was made between the late 40's and mid 50's from what I can tell. Not positive if the primers are corrosive as during WWII most of the large bore ammo used non corrosive primers. The powder is really no different than the very slow burning extruded powders used today, except that it is sixty years old and that is pretty old for powder of any sort. Powder decays over time. No one is really sure what its rate of decay is, but ammo that old is probably evaluated constantly by the Army. For a while the Army stopped use of that M-8 API with barrets out of fear of high pressures due to powder decay. That has been lifted.

Talking with some guys out of Benning, it seems the old M-8 API round may have some decay in terms of its incendary compound. The guys at Benning have told me that at times the M-8 kind of fizzles as it heads down range, particularly when used in the heat of the summer. I haven't experienced this but Lewis is a whole bunch cooler and dryer than Benning.

I view the Barret as a man-portable, semi automatic, M-2 Browning in terms of maintenance and use. So I tell guys to clean them as if they were a issued service rifle instead of what the 107 isn't (a precision rifle). No need for any fancy cleaning gear with the Barret. GI sectional .50 cal rod with GI brushes will be as good as anything else. RBC and CLP is fine. Using Shooters Choice or Hoppes Bench Rest solvent is a waste of money on a Barret.

If you think you are using corrosive primers, buy some Sweets 7.62 copper remover or just carry a small bottle of household ammonia with you. Windex with ammonia also works. When you got the crud out of the barrel and bolt face, clean it using some ammonia of some sort. Hose off with carb cleaner, dry, and a light coat of lube if you are in an area prone to rust. Ammonia neutralizes the effects of mecuric primers but you really must get the rifle clean quickly after firing with that type of ammo.

Gene

[The Reaper]

Cyclops:

Good post, thanks for sharing.

The system and the ammunition both have their limitations. If you or your CO want to get the best accuracy the M107 is capable of, you will need better bullets, like the Hornady AMAX. The tradeoff is the payload, pyro, and AP characteristics of the rounds you are currently using. The rifle itself is probably not going to be much better than a 2 moa gun, but you never know.

I shoot a fair amount of .50 have to tell you that current production API and Mk 211 are not corrosive. That characteristic is only found in ammo with a mercuric primer, and the ammo you are using does not have it. The WW II stuff you shot probably was. I think that Army transitioned in the 50s, except for the large bore ammo. Furthermore, corrosive ammo does not cause malfunctions, it pits the bore. Maybe you are saying that it is unusually dirty ammo, and the powder fouling is causing problems. What type of malfunctions are you getting? Failures to chamber or extract?

Good work, thanks for your service.

TR

[zahal_boyscout]

I'm surprised the US hasnt adopted some of the bracket sniper firing techniques of the Soviets. It is a system where more soldiers are sniper trained, and fielded with a moderately accurate sniper rifle (the dragunov), and backed up by a squad of crew-served weapons, and anti-armor weapons.


zahal_boyscout...

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by zahal_boyscout

I'm surprised the US hasnt adopted some of the bracket sniper firing techniques of the Soviets. It is a system where more soldiers are sniper trained, and fielded with a moderately accurate sniper rifle (the dragunov), and backed up by a squad of crew-served weapons, and anti-armor weapons.


zahal_boyscout...

zb:

We have no idea who you are.

Before you post again, tell us a little more about yourself by filling in your profile and introducing yourself in the proper place.

You might alo want to do some more reading, especially threads that are stickied or titled Introductions.

Bad SA and bad manners here.

TR

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

What type of malfunctions are you getting? Failures to chamber or extract?

TR

We were getting failure to chamber/seat the round fully malfunctions. At the time it was explained to me by an 18B we had near our FOB that this was due to carbon build up in the chamber caused by the "overly corrosive ammo we were firing". I took his word for it as I didn't have much experience with the 107. You guys seem to be in aggreement that M8 anf Mod 211 mod 0 isn't corrosive so I either mis understood what he told me or he was wrong. That being said once I gave the chamber a little more TLC with some Sweet's it seemed to not happen as often. Thanks for the knowledge guys.

[optactical]

Originally Posted by zahal_boyscout

I'm surprised the US hasnt adopted some of the bracket sniper firing techniques of the Soviets. It is a system where more soldiers are sniper trained, and fielded with a moderately accurate sniper rifle (the dragunov), and backed up by a squad of crew-served weapons, and anti-armor weapons.


zahal_boyscout...

So what is a Designated Marksman? If you are going to talk shit then do some research... we do the same thing, and we do it better.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

We were getting failure to chamber/seat the round fully malfunctions. At the time it was explained to me by an 18B we had near our FOB that this was due to carbon build up in the chamber caused by the "overly corrosive ammo we were firing". I took his word for it as I didn't have much experience with the 107. You guys seem to be in aggreement that M8 anf Mod 211 mod 0 isn't corrosive so I either mis understood what he told me or he was wrong. That being said once I gave the chamber a little more TLC with some Sweet's it seemed to not happen as often. Thanks for the knowledge guys.

There are some great .50 chamber brushes which are essentially a hard handle, like a screwdriver, connected to a piece of heavy cable with a BIG brush on the end. They were originally made for shotgun shooters, but the 12 gauge brush works well in .50 chambers as well. I can pull my bolt and clean the chamber of powder fouling in less time than it took to type this. They are not particularly expensive either. I would recommend that your unit pick some up.

The brushes are listed in the Brownell's catalog and are on the web site. If your 18Bs or armorers do not have the Brownell's catalog, I highly recommend that you get them. IIRC, quite a few teams use them for pre-deployment purchases.

Careful with the Sweet's, you leave it in more than 15 minutes, it is corrosive and is eating metal.

Good luck and happy hunting!

TR

[Cyclops]

TR,

Thanks for the info. I will definitly pass that on to the new Sniper Section Leader. I've been promoted out. Good and bad I guess. I do however have influence over all of our Brigade's Sniper Sections in my new job. Thanks again.

[Sinister]

Hard to imagine that a weapon that does great as a 300-yard max support by fire asset has been bought to fill a long-range "Sniper" anti-personnel/anti-materiel role. The M82/107 makes a much lighter and transportable support section weapon than a complete Ma Deuce (tripod, pintle, T&E), but a sniper weapon? No way.

Put makeup and lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Sinister

Put makeup and lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

DAaaaaammmmmm Dave!

[626]

FWIW. If you are stuck trying to find decent sniper loads for the .50 try SNC Sniper Elite they are sub minute and come in different tactical loads (even working on an IR tracer but not out yet). Here's the link below

http://www.snctec.com/html/en/produc...tion-small.php

For the record I'm no believer in a .50 SWS either for all the same reasons previously mentioned. Snipers engage people not material (IMHO)and they have to have the tools, trg, and skill to do it in 1-3 rounds (spotted).

[NousDefionsDoc]

skill to do it in 1-3 rounds

LONGRANGE! Come look what he said!

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by 626

FWIW. If you are stuck trying to find decent sniper loads for the .50 try SNC Sniper Elite they are sub minute and come in different tactical loads (even working on an IR tracer but not out yet). For the record I'm no believer in a .50 SWS either for all the same reasons previously mentioned. Snipers engage people not material (IMHO)and they have to have the tools, trg, and skill to do it in 1-3 rounds (spotted).

Yo:

So please do tell us of your practical first hand experience shooting this SNC Sniper Elite Ammo. Spare no details. What type of rifle, optic, mean radius and range fired, environmental conditions etc.

Your public records indicate you are in an SOF outfit. After your post I am curious as to which SOF unit, and in what capacity are you a member of this SOF unit?

Gene

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Yo:

So please do tell us of your practical first hand experience shooting this SNC Sniper Elite Ammo. Spare no details. What type of rifle, optic, mean radius and range fired, environmental conditions etc.

Your public records indicate you are in an SOF outfit. After your post I am curious as to which SOF unit, and in what capacity are you a member of this SOF unit?

Gene

On another note: it's TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It). I had the pleasure of shooting a 1000pt NRA HP Match this past Saturday at Camp Butner NC. LR1947 - We missed you! (I know - you had a legitimate excuse. ) I was fortunate enough to get to shoot with Ken S. and we both had a good time, despite sub-par shooting. To add insult to injury Ed H. was the line boss running the range - from right behind our position. Talk about old home week. The "End of the World" comment came about because one of the Juniors came up to us at the end of the match wanting to borrow a calculator to figure his percentages because he was "too tired to think". (Remember this was a 1000 pt. match. For those of you that don't know - take the final score and move the decimal place.) The kid came across with the exact same attitude that gets so many of them banned with their 1st/2nd post here, and like them didn't understand our vocal lack of sympathy. And Ed let it go. In fact he said "I don't even chew out E-7s any more unless they really deserve it." I almost choked. I did spray my soft drink all over the place. It's a good thing I had already finished shooting and Ken was too busy chasing an annoying wind shift to pay attention. Ed has mellowed and the world has changed (though I wouldn't recommend any of the uninitiated push their luck). The community will miss him when he retires this summer. JFTFOI - Peregrino

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

LONGRANGE! Come look what he said!

No!! I refuse to! I'm tired.

So what would the per centage of 925 out of 1000 be anyway?

Got to get on my reloading bench and get some more 77 and 80 gr loads made up for a fun weekend of cross the course. Now that I have quit smoking and drinking coffee I should really shoot like crap!