Planned Parenthood Official Argues for Right to Post-Birth Abortion

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally Posted by MR2

Murder is immoral, but the death penalty is not murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life.

Technically, at least under the common law definition, murder is the unlawful taking of a human life with malice aforethought. Without the "malice aforethought", it's manslaughter.

But the definition is a tautology anyway - murder and manslaughter are illegal killings because we made them illegal. As Billy L-bach said, laws are legislated morality. And where we draw the line between illegal and legal killings says where we stand as a society on there moral issues.

Originally Posted by cbtengr

I used to be one of those guys who thought that through abortion we were saving a child from a life of poverty or not being wanted in a loving home. Were it only the poor and the ignorant getting them I might look at it differently today. There are few valid reasons in my mind that abortion should be used as a form of birth control.

Well, I am one of those guys whom people who think like this think should be dead, so I take this rather personally. I am the child of a single mother and grew up in poverty. If Roe v. Wade and the mindset it reflected had come around a few years earlier, I would have been killed. Maybe the world and my family would have been better off without me, but the idea that I would have been "saved" by being killed is abhorrent to me.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by cbtengr

I used to be one of those guys who thought that through abortion we were saving a child from a life of poverty or not being wanted in a loving home. Were it only the poor and the ignorant getting them I might look at it differently today. There are few valid reasons in my mind that abortion should be used as a form of birth control.

Rationalization.

Children take a tremendous investment of time and energy from the finite lifespan of those who care for them.
"Saving" them is really just a euphemism for the adult avoiding the spending of that time and energy.

The failure to produce the next generation means there won't be sufficient caretakers for the elderly when their time comes to be dependent.
The cheapening of life affects the weakest among us the most, both young and old.

The consequences of forsaking the future are currently landing on a generation.
Elder neglect, abuse, and euthanizations of economic convenience will increase.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

Most adults are emotional children to one extent or another; this is the source of many of the complaints about society in this very forum.

Nailed it, Doc.

[ddoering]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Rationalization.

Exactly. Just like the Nazis rationalized the Final Solution to the Jewish problem.

[afchic]

To a large degree, I have to agree with Dozer. It seems to me that "conservatives" put emphasis on having the baby, but once that baby is born, it and its mother becomes a "burden" on society.

The topic of abortion is near and dear to my heart for three reasons. First being, my mom with me. She was an RN, and the same day she found out she was pregnant with me, she also found out she had been exposed to measles. For weeks, her OB/GYN, and many of her doctor friends tried to convince her to have an abortion. They told her that there was a 25% chance or less that she would even be able to carry me to term, because I would be so deformed she would likely suffer a miscarriage. Why put yourself through that they asked her. She never had a doubt in her mind what she would do. Granted I was born 2 weeks early, but other than that, a healthy kid.

Many of you who have been on here a while know I had an unplanned pregnancy when I was a 1st Lt. I was not married, and it caused some pretty significant issues for my career, in the short term. Once again, people in leadership positions urged me to have an abortion. "Officers don't get knocked up" "You have to a choose between a career and a child as a single parent" blah blah blah. Luckily I had the support of the people that matter the most to me, my family. Mom, as a die hard Catholic, was upset that I had put myself in that situation, but she NEVER had anyting but compassion and love for me, and without her and the rest of my family, I wouldn't be where I am today. They all have played a significant role in raising my daughter, to the point that J sometimes says she has 4 mothers and 3 fathers

I never once considered having an abortion. It wasn't an option for me. I knew it would be hard, but I could not let my child die, because I made a poor decision in life. I can still remember the day she was baptized in the church I grew up in. There were those who appreciated the fact that I did not take the easy road, and had J. Then there were those who are against abortion, but like Dozer case with his son, looked down their nose at me since I obviously was going to need "help" raising my child. Meaning from the federal government, because Lord forbid I actually have a good job and a support network that would keep me off the public dole.

The final story is the most painful for me. My then 19 year old stepdaughter called me one day in May 2 years ago to tell me she was pregnant and needed to get an abortion. She refused to talk to her mother, and begged me not to tell her father. I told her I would never keep a secret like that from her dad, but if she didn't want her mom to know, I wouldn't tell her. In return I begged her not to have the abortion. I would take the baby, my sister who can't have children would take the baby, my best friend from college who can't have children would take the baby. All to no avail. She was not raised in my home, and therefore did not have the religious background to ask God for help and support. Her relationship with her mother is tenuous at best, and she could count on no support from her. Additionally, she was across the country, and any talk of coming out to us was out of the question. So she had the abortion, and my heart still aches any time I think of it.

So while these three stories go from a wed mother having a child, to an unwed mother having a child, to an unwed mother having an abortion, in my mind they provide a look into the reasoning why some decide to have their child, while others don't. Yes we have an epidemic in this country of single mothers having more and more babies, which almost to a person on this BB state they are tired of paying for. But until we can find a way to provide some support mechanism to these mothers, instead of just thinking they are another leach on society, we are going to continue to have issues such as this topic come up.

In my opinion, either we value the life just as much AFTER it is born, as when it is in the mother's womb, or we are hypocrits. As much as most of us would like to believe that "abstinence" is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, it isn't realistic to believe it is fullproof. I was raised to believe sex was for marriage. Look where that got me. We need to be teaching sex ed in schools. Maybe not to kindergarteners, but at the 5th and 6th grade level. We need to get young girls to believe they have more worth, than as jsut some cute guy's one night stand. (J's 10th grade class has almost 25 girls in it that either have babies or are pregnant right now). We need to teach young men that there is nothing "queer" about waiting to have sex, and if they do have it they need to start respecting themselves, as well as their girlfriends, enough to use a condom.

Off my soap box because I could rant about this forever. I believe abortion is murder. But I also think that condeming all mothers that choose to go this route, is wrong. As my parish priest said during his Easter Homily yesterday, Christ ate with sinner, Christ lived with sinners, Christ loved sinners. He did not condemn them. He slowly tried to get them to see the errors of their ways, with compassion, not condemnation. He showed us that strength of conviction and compassion are not polar opposites. Harshness and compassion are. So which are we going to choose to be?

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by afchic

...But until we can find a way to provide some support mechanism to these mothers, instead of just thinking they are another leach on society, we are going to continue to have issues such as this topic come up.

afchic,

Thank you for your post. It takes balls to throw your PII (in a sense) out there. I highlighted the text I want to touch on. I believe that particular "support mechanism" is called a "dad". Not a father, but a dad. They are becoming harder, and harder to find these days. BLUF is however, that shit happens. I'm only in my early 30's, but I've seen enough to know that the Norman Rockwell version of life does not exist.

Women get pregnant, and bio-fathers leave at the first hint of difficulties/responsibility. No amount of school education IMO is going to curb that. Monkey see, monkey do is usually how things pan out. Johnny see's daddy hit mommy, Johnny hits Suzy. Billy was a bastard, Billy's offspring become bastards. It starts and ends in the environment they are raised in.

In reference to your step-daughter, please continue to accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and pray for the wisdom to know the difference.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by BryanK

afchic,

Thank you for your post. It takes balls to throw your PII (in a sense) out there. I highlighted the text I want to touch on. I believe that particular "support mechanism" is called a "dad". Not a father, but a dad. They are becoming harder, and harder to find these days. BLUF is however, that shit happens. I'm only in my early 30's, but I've seen enough to know that the Norman Rockwell version of life does not exist.

Women get pregnant, and bio-fathers leave at the first hint of difficulties/responsibility. No amount of school education IMO is going to curb that. Monkey see, monkey do is usually how things pan out. Johnny see's daddy hit mommy, Johnny hits Suzy. Billy was a bastard, Billy's offspring become bastards. It starts and ends in the environment they are raised in.

In reference to your step-daughter, please continue to accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and pray for the wisdom to know the difference.

Thanks for your post. I agree, DADS!!!! My daughter's "first" dad, was my dad. Luckily she always had a male role model in her life.

What you posted got me to thinking. One of J's PSR teachers teaches full time in East St Louis. She said it is truly remarkable the number of 13 and 14 year olds that get pregnant, on purpose, because that is the environment they were brought up in. Girls got pregnant and had to take on all the responsibility, while the boys walked away and got off scott free. She said there were some boys who at 13-14 years of age had 7-8 kids with different moms.

So where does that cycle get broken? When do celebrities start using their clout to talk about kids respecting themselves, instead of rapping about nailing the next ho?

Where do these kids go to for support, once they find themselves with a baby? How do these girls find the support so they can gruaduate highschool and make it in college? How do we raise boys to understand any jackwagon can get a girl pregnant, but it takes a MAN to raise a child?

It obviously isn't happening in the home, so where? And I am not talking about enacting legislation. I am talking about folks like you and me, who are raising decent kids, getting more involved with our kids friends, or volunteering our time in places where there are no role models.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by afchic

I am talking about folks like you and me, who are raising decent kids, getting more involved with our kids friends, or volunteering our time in places where there are no role models.

That's one of the biggest keys, IMO.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by afchic

.........So where does that cycle get broken? When do celebrities start using their clout to talk about kids respecting themselves, instead of rapping about nailing the next ho?.............

Sadly for some it has become the cycle of life. Be born into a single parent family getting by on welfare, no adult setting goals, friends are family, home getting crowded, get prego, get your own welfare and start the next cycle.

But this thread is about post abortion killing.

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by afchic

...1.) So where does that cycle get broken? 2.) When do celebrities start using their clout to talk about kids respecting themselves, instead of rapping about nailing the next ho?

3.) Where do these kids go to for support, once they find themselves with a baby? 4.) How do these girls find the support so they can graduate high school and make it in college? 5.) How do we raise boys to understand any jackwagon can get a girl pregnant, but it takes a MAN to raise a child?

It obviously isn't happening in the home, so where? And I am not talking about enacting legislation. I am talking about folks like you and me, who are raising decent kids, getting more involved with our kids friends, or volunteering our time in places where there are no role models.

1.) It won't. Not in the current environment. The best I can think of, is that it can only occur if BOTH parents have a strong moral base to work from. If Johnny Sr. didn't do it, Johnny Jr. more than likely won't do it.

2.) Morals didn't sell last time I checked.

3.) That's where upbringing becomes intertwined with education. I just completed a barrage of birth, newborn, and other classes in preparation of our new arrival. I learned a great deal, but having already been through the birthing process with my ex-wife (bringing my first son into the world), I thought I knew it all (yeah right ).

The education I received did not come without a price. We paid about $600-$700 for the aforementioned classes. Last time I checked, burger flipper wages were not that much (IF the parents even have jobs). I'd gladly accept the fact that my tax dollars were going toward an education program where youths were given the proverbial "tools for the tool box" that focused solely on the birth mother and birth father raising the child together in a manner that reflected good morals, values, and standards.

4.) I do not have a good answer for this one. If no support is immediately available (i.e. family/friends), they are typically SOL. Maybe a non-profit .org that specializes in these situations would be a benefit. Never underestimate the good nature of an American.

5.) That has to come from the parents, family, or friends of the family whom are in direct contact with the child on a regular basis throughout the child's' life. That is the only way to instill a sense of respect when it comes to members of the opposite sex.

To conclude, since it hasn't been happening in the home, America's youth ultimately needs to take their own message to Garcia. If all avenues for assistance are exhausted, it then becomes time for the survival instinct to take hold and drive on accordingly. I realize that is an "extreme" view to take, but ultimately what REAL possibilities are there?

ETA: After seeing Pete's post, the prior post doesn't hold regard with the topic at hand. Post-abortion termination of life. It is my stance that once that strip of paper turns blue, it's time to quit the smoking, drinking, deli meat, caffeine, and whatever other vice is plaguing you; in order to be the healthiest mama you can be for the new arrival. I personally cannot get my head wrapped around the fact that someone would execute a child after delivery.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Pete

Sadly for some it has become the cycle of life. Be born into a single parent family getting by on welfare, no adult setting goals, friends are family, home getting crowded, get prego, get your own welfare and start the next cycle.

But this thread is about post abortion killing.

BAck on topic. How does this thread dovetail with the current prosecution going on in Philly? That doctor ( and I use that term loosely) is going to rot in hell. I do not know how a woman could do this. I don't know how anyone who calls themselves a doctor would preform such a "service"

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

This takes for granted that said adult knows how to properly raise a child in the first place, which can be a rare thing, especially in those parts of society where crime, abject poverty and lack of personal accountability are more prevalent.

Most adults are emotional children to one extent or another; this is the source of many of the complaints about society in this very forum.

All new parents are lacking in parenting skills.
Children are often the catalyst which changes the emotional maturity of an adult.

Children are always a blessing to those who raise them because they change the caretaker.
Whether a new parent or potential parent chooses to receive this blessing is another matter.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Children are always a blessing to those who raise them

Who says? That's patently false.

The guy in the original post is an idiot. That fact, however, doesn't change the morality and sensibility I find in the right to be "pro-choice".

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

? . . . The guy in the original post is an idiot. That fact, however, doesn't change the morality and sensibility I find in the right to be "pro-choice".

if you are talking about the representative who just badgers the witness and rephrases her responses with a "so what your saying is . . . ?" Until at some point something sort close to the headline kinda gets said if that's what you wanted to hear. Basically he's just grandstanding from a bully pulpit.

If he really gave a sh!t he'd propose legislation to bring the law into line with nature. Like the Nodaks did.

[MR2]

The only way liberals will stop supporting abortions is if womb registration passes and fetus's qualify for unemployment first!

/rant