War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims

[TOMAHAWK9521]

I had nephews in Junior High and Highschool over on west side of Columbus, OH who had to deal with their Somali classmates jumping up and cheering "Death to America" when news that the towers fell got to their school. The Somalis didn't like the fact that no one else shared their joy and were furious to discover the 1st Amendment didn't include the requirement of anyone else having to stay around and listen to them.

One of those nephews, had an additional incident in school a couple years later. When one of his Somali classmates was vomiting an anti-US diatribe as part of a class project, my nephew packed up his books and began to walk out. The teacher asked where he was going to which he replied "The principle's office." The teacher said she didn't excuse him, at which time the aforementioned Somali got in my nephew's face and demanded why he shouldn't have to listen. My nephew explained how many of his relatives, to include his older brothers, were currently fighting I-slamic militants overseas and pretty much anything this guy uttered was complete BS. When the Somali kid tried to prevent him from leaving, my nephew naturally folded the kid in half and then asked if he could go to the principle's office.

Once the principle gone the whole picture of what had transpired, he quietly took my nephew out to lunch.

That same nephew and I linked up in Mosul 2 years ago, he on his first assignment and I on my last. I was a team daddy and he was a combat engineer doing route clearance twice a day. I assured him there was no envy on my part as to who had the trickier job.

[T-Rock]

I don't see these as religious celebrations. I believe that the Palestinians saw 9-11 as a strike back against a seemingly untouchable oppressor rather then a religious victory.

Can you expound on this a little more because if anything, the United States and Israel are the only ones doing anything to help the poor, oppressed Palestinians - even as they‘re launching rockets into Israel, to kill innocent civilians - I’m waiting for archaeology’s “BIG FIND” the treasure trove… LOL - an Arab Palestinian yield of artifacts that show who the first king of Palestine was, when Palestine was founded, and by whom, what the language was, what the name of the currency was, what the religion of ancient Palestine was, and what is demise was…

You may want to take a look at the PLO or the Hamas charter, here’s part of article 7 and article 8, from 1988:

The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

> http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www....s/charter.html

[Pete]

Originally Posted by XavierR

..... I have heard many of them reference 911 as a blow against Islam.

- Xavier

And many do so not because it was a blow against the west but because it was a visable sign of the march of Islam.

Many of the "group hug" people in the west are thinking with their hearts.

Me? I just believe what Islamic people say the Koran says. I take them at their word.

The slow march of Islam? How about Turkey?

Once held as the true model of a secular Islamic nation. The military was able to keep things from going too far. But now? If you've been paying attention over the past few years the radical Islamists have slowly taken over the government - and through appointments the major administration of government and schools. The key leaders in the military have also been replaced.

A few years from now Turkey is going to do something we consider over the top and the "group hug" people are going to say "How did that happen?" and then "Can't happen here."

The slow march of Islam continues - time and population are on their side.

Pete

Islam, the sea in which the terrorist shark swims. It aids and comforts the shark on it's journey.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

How old were you on 9/11?

Cause I saw mobs of them celebrating in the streets, worldwide.

TR

This.

Personally, I have a huge problem with any group that would make me into a slave or consider me as a lesser human because I refuse to swallow whatever flavor of religious horseshit they're shoveling on that particular day. I think I'm intelligent enough to make my own decisions about what I want to believe, and I have no tolerance for those who would foist their dogma upon me.


In our modern times, show me another religious group other than Muslims that has taken such apparent delight in the bombing of public places with such scale and frequency. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any.

[GratefulCitizen]

Neither hate muslims nor harbor anger towards them.
Some are benign, others are not.

If a mountain lion came up on my campsite, no hate or anger would be directed towards it, either.
If it appeared to be a threat to my family, I would kill it.

Don't know what the best method is for dealing with foreign threats, whether those threats are rooted in nations or idealogies.
Only care what will keep the threats at bay.

If diplomacy works, fine.
If diplomacy doesn't work, and a little force is required, fine.
If a little force doesn't work, and greater force is required, fine.
Whatever is necessary should be done.

Some 65 years less two days ago, it took strategic nuclear strikes to quash a particular threat across an ocean.

There were powers with imperial ambitions in the first world war.
There were powers with imperial ambitions in the second world war.
There were powers with imperial ambitions in the cold war.
There are powers with imperial ambitions carrying green flags now.

Previous generations kept the barbarians on the other side of the wall.
Different generation, different barbarians.

Means aren't the problem, it all comes down to political will.
We either have the political will to survive as a nation, and pass the blessings of liberty to posterity, or we do not.

Too many citizens looking for handouts have put weaklings in charge of our government.
Votes matter.

[mojaveman]

Please forgive me, but I've sure become more suspicious and prejudicial since 9/11.

If I hear Arabic being spoken anywhere in my vicinity I take a good look at the folks, especially if they're young males.

A month or so ago I was browsing in one of my favorite gun stores when four college age Arabic speaking men pulled up in a brand new Mercedes. They were interested in looking only at M-4 style firearms. I stood and watched them the entire time that they were in there and they knew I was looking at them. In retrospect I probably should have written down the license plate number of the vehicle and given it, as well as a SALUTE report, to the FBI.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

AKV is right that we aren't Nazis. But it seems he's happy to accept the "good" Nazis.How did we fix Nazism? We destroyed the ideology through military might. This was has been going on for 1,400 years. The success of Israel in the 6 day war caused a long period of self-doubt in the Muslim world...as they believe "Allah controls all" So why did he allow them to get their ass kicked? Because they weren't on the "right path." What will it take to stop this islamist, totalitarian, supremacist ideology?I don't know. But giving them a big fat hug and making them feel good about themselves isn't the answer.

Mr. Paine,

"Good Nazis" would seem to be an oxymoron for anyone with common sense. People in Italy joke that at least Mussolini made the trains run on time, but other than providing comical villains for Mel Brooks movies, there is little silver lining to the Fascist cloud. A day spent at Auschwitz weeping over the ceiling high pile of baby shoes would cure any delusions of an absence of evil in this world. Interestingly given the massive crowds cheering Hitler's speeches in the old black and white newsreels of 1939, astonishingly there apparently wasn't a single Nazi in Germany the day after Berlin fell. Religious folks might see this as a miracle, akin to turning water to wine, agnostics might also see it as a miracle, though one of TAC AIR and boots on the ground, finally pragmatists may explain away this transformation as simple fear among the German people. Ironically it was this same fear that Hiltler took advantage of in 1932, and IMHO remains our greatest challenge. If there is a lesson to be learned from the Nazis, it is we should never forget how they came to power, how they suspended civil rights bit by bit, how they turned on subsections of their own citizenry, the evils they perpetuated by manipulating fear, and most importantly how it ended for them.

I agree with your signature, John Adams has a beautiful quote about enduring hardships so our grandkids have a better life. We must win this war on terror, it would be convenient if AQ or similar thugs would line up and face us in conventional battle as the Nazis did, but they wouldn't last a week and they aren't stupid. Given their guerilla tactics, we have to kill them, and only them, the way white blood cells attack an infection without destroying the surrounding healthy tissue. A .45 with Le Mas ammo isn't the best remedy for a staph infection.

IMHO the difference in our beliefs, is you think of Islam as a disease, that once exposed turns you into a mindless zombie, which supercedes everything else in life, character, family, tribe, ethnicity, nationality etc. it doesn't matter if you are a man, woman, or child, once exposed you are fockered forever, period.

I see it as just another operating system. I'm amazed at folks who believe they are privy to the true thoughts and intentions of men, woman, and children they don't know or of a particular faith they don't share. I don't think I can selectively interpret the true meaning of their scripture, or give them lectures on the evils of their faith, nor am I omnipotent enough to identify crocodile tears from condemnation of violent acts perpetuated in the name of their faith. You can argue talk is cheap, yes but that is a double edged sword. I don't imagine most Muslims like being told they are all terrorists anymore than Christians would appreciate being reminded men of your faith started WW2 and perpetuated the Holocaust.

Our constitution is something to believe in, and sets us apart, we can't bend it in instances when we find it's freedoms and protections distasteful, history has shown us where that can lead. We have good fair laws for the most part, if a citizen breaks them then bust him.

I don't believe in hugging America's enemies I believe in killing them, and only them. The fact "this is hard" is no excuse, if we truly are the good guys, there is no other course. I would extend the you are responsible for every round fired from your gun rule Mr. Howe teaches as an analogy to this issue. I suppose I wouldn't make a very good Christian since I don't believe in redemption for violent criminals or pedophiles either, IMHO this is their true incorrigible nature, however I don't extend such absolute beliefs across the board to Islam or whatever the faith is of the group we have to fight next. If every Muslim converted to Christianity tomorrow could we all put away our guns and work on our golf game? Or would there still be war and competition for resources as part of human nature? Maybe the Russians will get their malevolent act together again and we can go back to them being the obsessive great threat, they aren't Muslims, Eastern Orthodox Christians I believe and they have nukes and quite a track record.

Mr. Paine as I express my opinions I remind myself I have not walked in your shoes as a military officer, however Major Gant has, he has lived among Muslims, eaten their salt, played with their kids and fought their insurgent enemies. Sir, what are your views on his experiences, beliefs, and suggestions? I believe he is brave, and insightful, am I wrong?

[T-Rock]

The Qur'ans Islamic Doctrine codified by sharia, as well as Mein Kampf are political treatise, should Nazism be elevated to religious status?

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* "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews {Kafir} (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

* "...fight and slay the Pagans {Kafir} wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity (Jizya), then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Sura 9:5)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...n/009.qmt.html

* "You should know that seeking to kill Americans {Kafir}and Jews {Kafir} everywhere in the world is one of the greatest duties [for Muslims], and the good deed most preferred by Allah, the Exalted," (UBL)
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7326/a...and-mein-kampf

* The penalty for Kufr (unbelief) & the Kafir (non-muslim) = DEATH

c2.5 (3) and unbelief (Kufr), sins which put one beyond the pale of Islam (as discussed at o8.7) and necessitate stating the Testification of Faith (Shahada)…

f1.3 Someone {Kafir} (who knows Islamic Jurisprudence) or denies something…which there is scholarly consensus…is executed for his unbelief…
o4.17 There is no indemnity for killing a non-Muslim {Kafir}…
o8.7 (7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def: b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it;

(2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future…

(3) to speak words that imply unbelief…

(20) or to deny that Allah intended the Prophet’s message (Allah bless him and give him peace) to be the religion followed by the entire world (dis: w4.3-4) (al-Hadiyya al-Ala’iyya (y4), 423-24)
(Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)


-----------------------------------------


* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day {Kafir}, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book {Kafir}, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Sura 9:29)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...n/009.qmt.html

* "In fact, Muslims are obligated to raid the lands of the infidels {Kafir}, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system, barring any practice that contradicts the sharia from being publicly voiced among the people, as was the case at the dawn of Islam,"

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7326/a...and-mein-kampf

* The Objectives of Jihad

o8.7 (20) ... the Prophet’s message (Allah bless him and give him peace) to be the religion followed by the entire world (dis: w4.3-4) (al-Hadiyya al-Ala’iyya (y4), 423-24)

o9.0
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims {Kafir}, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.

o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation (def: c3.2). When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others.
(Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)

No need quoting the peaceful Sura because:

* al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh

* “None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (Surah 2: 106)http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...n/002.qmt.html

* “When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." (Surah 16:101)http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...n/016.qmt.html

* o22.1 ( I )
(9) those (nasikh) which supersede previously revealed Koranic verses;
(10) and those (mansukh) which are superseded by later verses.
(The Reliance of the Traveler. Pgs 625, 626)


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He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind.
THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE
~John Quincy Adams~

[olhamada]

I've been off line for a while, but grateful to see some PASSION behind this issue finally.

I was infuriated when I first heard about it, and am simply in stunned disbelief that NYC is actually thinking of allowing this for PC's sake.

We need to stop being PC and finally get some balls and be Americans with national defense as a first priority. Where did "defend her from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC" go? Starting with our CinC.

I love the sign I saw on the news yesterday - "We'll build a mosque in NYC when you build a synagogue in Mecca".

Originally Posted by Penn

6. I am beyond anger, I am hateful to the core of my being. If you're a {deleted}, I do not believe anything you say, and I don't trust you, Not because I don't want to, but because Your religion taught me that.

As one of Lebanese ancestry, I must admit that I'm a bit sensitive to this, so I've gotta ask - What's your definition of a "{deleted}" - a Muslim or an Arab? Keep in mind that they are not interchangeable groups. Many Arabs are Christian and most Muslims are not Arab - in fact only 1 in 4 are. That said, most Lebanese don't really consider themselves Arab.

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by akv

"Good Nazis" would seem to be an oxymoron for anyone with common sense.

Glad we can agree on one point. Have you studied the doctrine of islam enough to know that is or is not evil. Clearly not given your remarks. And let’s not make this a theological discussion of the significant differences between the Judeo-Christian God and the prince of darkness known as Allah (yes, the Allah of islam was/is the pagan moon god.)

Originally Posted by akv

If there is a lesson to be learned from the Nazis, it is we should never forget how they came to power, how they suspended civil rights bit by bit, how they turned on subsections of their own citizenry, the evils they perpetuated by manipulating fear, and most importantly how it ended for them.

My point exactly. And what do you know of the Muslim Brotherhood. Al Qaeda and their ilk are NOT the only enemy. Yet you seem solely focused on those who would pull triggers or plant bombs. What about the financiers? What about those engaged in legal warfare as an active method of advancing sharia law? And those involved in political warfare and cultural warfare?

Shall we ignore ALL of the other aspects of jihad?

You claim not to know the doctrine in one breath, yet unwilling to accept the possibility that when you pick up that rock there will be snakes under it. Read the sharia. Read their doctrine. Study it. Until you do, STFU.

Originally Posted by akv

IMHO the difference in our beliefs, is you think of Islam as a disease, that once exposed turns you into a mindless zombie, which supercedes everything else in life, character, family, tribe, ethnicity, nationality etc. it doesn't matter if you are a man, woman, or child, once exposed you are fockered forever, period.

I have never said that. There are some, few, who have escaped the evil grip of islam. Nonie Darwish is one whom I admire deeply. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is another. Dr Zuhdi Jasser is a muslim whom I believe has the best of intentions, but his personal opinions simply cannot overcome the weight of the doctrine he is attempting to reform. The laws surrounding scholarly consensus simply do not allow for the reformation of islam.
Do you even know what scholarly consensus is?
What the requirements are to reach scholarly consensus?
What the implications are?
How can you change scholarly consensus? You can’t. End of discussion.

Originally Posted by akv

I see it as just another operating system. I'm amazed at folks who believe they are privy to the true thoughts and intentions of men, woman, and children they don't know or of a particular faith they don't share.

I NEVER claimed to be privy to anyone’s thoughts. This is an analysis of their doctrine as they have written and confirmed it’s translation as true and accurate. If you want to talk about someone who claims to know the thoughts, lets talk about Georgetown’s John Esposito, who wrote an entire book on a survey without including a copy of the survey or the methods which it was administered.

Originally Posted by akv

I don't think I can selectively interpret the true meaning of their scripture, or give them lectures on the evils of their faith, nor am I omnipotent enough to identify crocodile tears from condemnation of violent acts perpetuated in the name of their faith.

Not discussion faith here. Islam is a political doctrine. Faith deals with what one has to do to get to heave. The preponderance of islam is focused on how muslims should deal with non-muslims. And that is political, not religious.

Originally Posted by akv

You can argue talk is cheap, yes but that is a double edged sword. I don't imagine most Muslims like being told they are all terrorists anymore than Christians would appreciate being reminded men of your faith started WW2 and perpetuated the Holocaust.

I don’t care what muslims do or don’t “like” being told. If they don’t like being told that their faith makes them adherents to an evil ideology, perhaps they should renounce that evil ideology.

But THEY CAN’T!

Why?

That evil ideology REQUIRES them to be KILLED for apostacy in renouncing their faith.

Nice huh?

Originally Posted by akv

I remind myself I have not walked in your shoes as a military officer, however Major Gant has, he has lived among Muslims, eaten their salt, played with their kids and fought their insurgent enemies. Sir, what are your views on his experiences, beliefs, and suggestions? I believe he is brave, and insightful, am I wrong?

You are wrong. But not about MAJ Gant. This is an interesting attempt at a digression towards getting me to denigrate a Special Forces Officer. I will not take the bait. MAJ Gant is as brave and as patriotic as any American willing to put on a uniform and cross the pond to face our enemies. He is well intentioned and may have had luck on a LOCAL basis.

This is a GLOBAL threat. It’s an evil, racist, supremacist ideology that was promulgated by a 6th century mass-murdering gangster pedophile.

And it MUST BE STOPPED.

[akv]

Mr Paine,

I admire your passion, and am grateful for your service to our country. I have the deepest respect for Major Gant, I think he has the best solution out there on this topic, which is why I asked your opinion. I would think less of anyone who denigrated him. I think he is a dynamic warrior, yet still a humble rational man who is destined for great things. Folks here enjoy healthy debate and learn from one another, if I have offended you in expressing my opinions, that was not my intent. At the same time hypersensitive abrasive rants are rarely convincing, and the realm of those consumed by fear, which seems a tough way to go through life...

[Pete]

Originally Posted by akv

....... At the same time hypersensitive abrasive rants are rarely convincing, and the realm of those consumed by fear, which seems a tough way to go through life...

Are you talking about TP's posts?

Just wondering.

Can you name one Muslim country that is moving to a more liberal (in the classic sense) stance? Or does it seem that all are slowly coming under the tighter and tighter grip of Islam?

It is not the people - it is the religion. Once it hits a critical % it drops it's "nice face" and takes over. There is no share and be nice in the Koran.

[Richard]

Old beliefs die hard even when demonstrably false.
- E.O. Wilson

McPrayer - one prayer for all appetites.

Richard

[Peregrino]

Historically the only times Muslim expansion has been slowed/temporarilly halted is when enough of them were killed that they had to regroup/rethink their strategy. Tours and Vienna come instantly to mind. That's why jihad has two faces - war for periods of strength, stealth for periods of weakness. (Weakness doesn't mean the same in "oriental" parleyance - it's actually more along the lines of "not prepared/positioned to fight".)

I will not go quietly into the dark.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Historically the only times Muslim expansion has been slowed/temporarilly halted is when enough of them were killed that they had to regroup/rethink their strategy. Tours and Vienna come instantly to mind. That's why jihad has two faces - war for periods of strength, stealth for periods of weakness. (Weakness doesn't mean the same in "oriental" parleyance - it's actually more along the lines of "not prepared/positioned to fight".)

I will not go quietly into the dark.

And Malta.

Yet as a people, we fail to understand the history behind the Crusades, and the Islamic invasions of Europe.

TR