General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by Richard

As for the bayonet training - even if they do away with that, the value of combatives and pugil stick training is - IMO and experiences - invaluable for soldiers of all MOSes and should not be abolished.

I fully beleive in this. But most units, espically SF ODAs, don't do this training. What do you mean we have to go to TSSC to sign stuff out? That's too much work, we'll just do some CrossFit.

Originally Posted by kgoerz

Maybe if the Army would produce a Bayonet that performed other functions besides just thrusting it into someones Gut. Like a Multi Tool.

o
I think someone needs to update the Bayonet. Make is smaller, light and something people would wear on their kit. Not this big bulky knife that is only a Bayonet and BS wire cutter. Make sure it will cut through C-wire. How many of us tried to cut some C-wire when we first got this. What 15 times of scissoring the knife and pinching your fingers together. I have two words

Body Breach!!

Bayonets may not be the current item carried by Soldiers. But we all carry a knife or two on our kit. Big Army and RFI needs to talk to soldiers, units and get the information to produce a new bayonet.

[PSM]

I just spoke to my son, who is in AIT at Ice Station Sill, and told him about this discussion. He said the they did not have Bayonet Training in Basic at FLW. They were the first cycle to not have it because, one DS said, too many recruits were cutting themselves...on purpose. They also didn't have IV training in First Aid.

BTW, his company was gender integrated 50/50.

Pat

[NousDefionsDoc]

Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.

General of the Year

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by Five-O

And completely out of touch...

Department of Redundancy Department

[Pete S]

Originally Posted by PSM

I just spoke to my son, who is in AIT at Ice Station Sill, and told him about this discussion. He said the they did not have Bayonet Training in Basic at FLW. They were the first cycle to not have it because, one DS said, too many recruits were cutting themselves...on purpose. They also didn't have IV training in First Aid.

BTW, his company was gender integrated 50/50.

Pat

Bad excuse to stop bayonet training.
The blades' don't need to be sharp to have effective training for beginners.
And if guys hurt themselves on purpose they shouldn't be there anyway.

If guys have good hand to hand and knife fighting skills as a base there shouldn't be a problem.
How hard is it to teach warriors how to mount a blade on the end of their boomstick and trust it into the enemies gut?

I agree with the General how current combatives are setting warriors up for failure.
The battlefield is no place for submission fighting, unless its on an EPW.
Even then it shouldn't be the preferred method.

[Sinister]

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1238780420

Corporal Samuel Toloza of El Salvador's Cuscatlan Battalion displays his bloodstained knife that he used to fend off Iraqi gunmen in Najaf, Iraq, Saturday May 1, 2004. One of his friends was dead, 12 others lay wounded and four soldiers still left were surrounded and out of ammunition, so Toloza used his switchblade knife to charge the Iraqi gunmen. (AP Photo/Saurabh Das)

"We never considered surrender. I was trained to fight until the end," said the 25-year-old corporal, one of 380 soldiers from El Salvador.

Corporal Samuel Toloza stood surrounded by armed, fanatic Iraqi militants. Sam was one of only 4 men from his battalion still standing; a friend lay dead at his feet, and 12 others were wounded.

Ammunition spent, no relief inbound, Sam saw Muqtada al-Sadr’s gunmen—modern headhunters shooting without regard for the innocents they purposely thrust into the melee—closing in.

In that moment of truth, Corporal Toloza was a man of action: He flipped open his knife and rushed a cluster of 10 Iraqi gunmen,
killing at least 1 and forcing the others to flee. Later, Sam said, “I thought, ‘This is the end.’ But, at the same time, I asked the Lord to protect and save me. . . . My immediate reaction was that I had to defend my friend, and the only thing I had in my hands was a knife.”

Corporal Toloza’s actions were widely reported, and he became a national hero. Secretary Rumsfeld pinned medals on the corporal and his comrades in a special ceremony, thanking them on behalf of the U.S. Armed Forces and all Americans.

When I first heard about the corporal’s heroism, like most of us who have fought and grappled, who have been both targets and shooters, I saw the battle through his eyes. This was an all-American, apple-pie, war hero story. Yet in this case, Sam was not a stereotypical high school football star who went home to Kansas with a shiny medal and a duffle bag of dirty clothes. Corporal Toloza was from the Cuscatlan Battalion, part of the Salvadoran mission to Iraq, an important part of the international coalition often overlooked by the press. His friend who died by gunshot was Private Natividad Mendez, also from El Salvador.

Toloza’s story demonstrates that individual acts of honor and integrity can have strategic effects. With Salvadoran spirit and years of American training and support, a corporal’s bravery became a symbol of national pride and metaphor for a strategic alliance between nations.

This is a far cry from the obsolete perception of the embattled Cold War El Salvador of two decades ago. Corporal Toloza’s tale shows how professionalism and pride, loyalty and integrity, are desirable personal as well as national character traits. America’s allies, after years of joint training, exercises, and military education, make sacrifices and are heroes, virtually indistinguishable from their U.S. counterparts.

Colonel Merrick E. Krause, USAF
Director, National Defense University Press
Editor, Joint Force Quarterly

[MeC86]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_new_basic_training

By SUSANNE M. SCHAFER, Associated Press Writer Susanne M. Schafer, Associated Press Writer – 32 mins ago
FORT JACKSON, S.C. – New soldiers are grunting through the kind of stretches and twists found in "ab blaster" classes at suburban gyms as the Army revamps its basic training regimen for the first time in three decades.

Heeding the advice of Iraq and Afghanistan combat veterans, commanders are dropping five-mile runs and bayonet drills in favor of zigzag sprints and exercises that hone core muscles. Battlefield sergeants say that's the kind of fitness needed to dodge across alleys, walk patrol with heavy packs and body armor or haul a buddy out of a burning vehicle.

Trainers also want to toughen recruits who are often more familiar with Facebook than fistfights.

"Soldiers need to be able to move quickly under load, to be mobile under load, with your body armor, your weapons and your helmet, in a stressful situation," said Frank Palkoska, head of the Army's Fitness School at Fort Jackson, which has worked several years on overhauling the regime.

"We geared all of our calisthenics, all of our running movements, all of our warrior skills, so soldiers can become stronger, more powerful and more speed driven," Palkoska said. The exercises are part of the first major overhaul in Army basic fitness training since men and women began training together in 1980, he said.

The new plan is being expanded this month at the Army's four other basic training installations — Fort Leonard Wood, Mo., Fort Sill, Okla., Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Knox, Ky.

Drill sergeants with experience in the current wars are credited with urging the Army to change training, in particular to build up core muscle strength. One of them is 1st Sgt. Michael Todd, a veteran of seven deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.

On a recent training day Todd was spinning recruits around to give them the feel of rolling out of a tumbled Humvee. Then he tossed on the ground pugil sticks made of plastic pipe and foam, forcing trainees to crawl for their weapons before they pounded away on each other.

"They have to understand hand-to-hand combat, to use something other than their weapon, a piece of wood, a knife, anything they can pick up," Todd said.

The new training also uses "more calisthenics to build core body power, strength and agility," Palkoska said in an office bedecked with 60-year-old black and white photos of World War II-era mass exercise drills. Over the 10 weeks of basic, a strict schedule of exercises is done on a varied sequence of days so muscles rest, recover and strengthen.

Another aim is to toughen recruits from a more obese and sedentary generation, trainers said.

Many recruits didn't have physical education in elementary, middle or high school and therefore tend to lack bone and muscle strength. When they ditch diets replete with soda and fast food for healthier meals and physical training, they drop excess weight and build stronger muscles and denser bones, Palkoska said.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, the three-star general in charge of revamping all aspects of initial training, said his overall goal is to drop outmoded drills and focus on what soldiers need today and in the future.

Bayonet drills had continued for decades, even though soldiers no longer carry the blades on their automatic rifles. Hertling ordered the drills dropped.

"We have to make the training relevant to the conditions on the modern battlefield," Hertling said during a visit to Fort Jackson in January.

The general said the current generation has computer skills and a knowledge base vital to a modern fighting force. He foresees soldiers using specially equipped cell phones to retrieve information on the battlefield to help repair a truck or carry out an emergency lifesaving medical technique.

But they need to learn how to fight.

"Most of these soldiers have never been in a fistfight or any kind of a physical confrontation. They are stunned when they get smacked in the face," said Capt. Scott Sewell, overseeing almost 190 trainees in their third week of training. "We are trying to get them to act, to think like warriors."

For hours, Sewell and his drill sergeants urge on helmeted trainees as they whale away at each other with pugil sticks, landing head and body blows until one falls flat on the ground. As a victor slams away at his flattened foe, a drill sergeant whistles the fight to a halt.

"This is the funnest day I've had since I've been here!" said 21-year-old Pvt. Brendon Rhyne, of Rutherford County, N.C., after being beaten to the ground. "It makes you physically tough. Builds you up on the insides mentally, too."

The Marine Corps is also applying war lessons to its physical training, adopting a new combat fitness test that replicates the rigor of combat. The test, which is required once a year, has Marines running sprints, lifting 30-pound ammunition cans over their heads for a couple of minutes and completing a 300-yard obstacle course that includes carrying a mock wounded Marine and throwing a mock grenade.

Capt. Kenny Fleming, a 10-year-Army veteran looking after a group of Fort Jackson trainees, said men and women learn exercises that prepare them to do something on the battlefield such as throw a grenade, or lunge and pick a buddy off the ground. Experience in Iraq has shown that women need the same skills because they come under fire, too, even if they are formally barred from combat roles.

"All their exercises are related to something they will do out in the field," Fleming said, pointing out "back bridge" exercises designed to hone abdominal muscles where soldiers lift hips and one leg off the ground and hold it steady.

"This will help their core muscles, which they could use when they stabilize their body for shooting their weapon, or any kind of lifting, pulling, or something like grabbing a buddy out of a tank hatch," Fleming said.

Fleming said those who had some sort of sports in high school can easily pick up on the training, while those who didn't have to be brought along. One hefty soldier in a recent company he trained dropped 45 pounds and learned to blast out 100 push-ups and 70 sit-ups, he said.

"We just have to take the soldier who's used to sitting on the couch playing video games and get them out there to do it," Fleming said.

[Utah Bob]

Bayonet drills had continued for decades, even though soldiers no longer carry the blades on their automatic rifles. Hertling ordered the drills dropped

Is the surplus market now flooded with bayonets? Did they grind the lug off the M-4s?

So they're teaching them to use sticks (an old Monty Python Army training sketch comes to mind)

"They have to understand hand-to-hand combat, to use something other than their weapon, a piece of wood, a knife, anything they can pick up," Todd said.

but not a bayonet.

The logic escapes me.

Now they'll develop sprinters with no endurance but a lot of muscle?
Again the logic escapes me.

What is the spirit of the Thigh Master? "To build core muscle, Drill Sergeant!"

Can I get a Hooah?

Don't mind me. I guess I'm just old.

[Sierra Bravo]

So the next time your position is over run by the enemy

you can just lift up your shirt and say

"check out these abs"

WTF?

I could understand including Core training in PT but maybe adding an advanced bladed / weapon skill set to balance things out might be a good idea?

[Pete]

Next thing ya' know they'll dust off the old tape of Suzanne Somers tapes and go for "buns of steel" ........................Oh, this ain't gonna end well.......

Wonder if the Army will call for a "thigh master" contract?

[Guy]

That's WHY this type of training should have stayed....

Data: Only 19 percent of medical evacuations in Mideast battle-related

Stars & Stripes Article
Stay safe.

[Masochist]

Originally Posted by Guy

That's WHY this type of training should have stayed....

Data: Only 19 percent of medical evacuations in Mideast battle-related

Stars & Stripes Article
Stay safe.

Semi-hijacking this thread, but still relevant.

248 due to pregnancy or childbirth? And it's been said that pregnancy stats haven't been well kept, so there are possibly more?

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...1&postcount=72 (thanks Pete)

I know that pregnancies (according to the above chart) equate to less than one percent of total medevacs, but does that speak to a larger issue with soldier readiness? If Soldier A and Soldier B can't be disciplined enough to keep from hooking up, are they disciplined enough to do the things they need to do (physically, mentally, etc.) to be prepared and stay prepared in battle? Is this an indicator of why other injuries are more prevalent than they should be?

[BMT (RIP)]

British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...h-bayonet.html





BMT

[greenberetTFS]

Excellent post,completely say's it all !!!!...............

Big Teddy

[alright4u]

Originally Posted by Dragbag036

Well I remember about 20 years ago, when Drill Sgt Hughs said "sound off with what you want to be in the future?" we replied "Expert Infantry" then he said spirit of the bayonet and we said "to kill, to kill with cold blue steel" he replied "whirl......whirl....."

WTF....what is up with the future of our forces? Has everyone gone mad? Jihadis, (like Charlie) are out there training, and we are trying to get out of it. Playing Call of Duty 2 is not going to make the American soldier harder, the occasional trip off the couch doesn't prepare you to hump a ruck in any environment.

my .00002 cents

I agree. The Army had sound reasons for what seemed liked repetition madness. From Basic, AIT, ABN, and special training to you name it, things became like second nature/automatic. I had two SF senior NCO's who constantly trained the yards in immediate action drills. It made no difference if we had kicked some ass in combat. They kept it up as we always had new bodies to fill in for others. Those yards were damn good. The S4 got us 250 plus extra LAW's to train with. Those LAW's were taken out south of our BMTE HQ, fired at 55 gallon drums, and; all of us taught the yards how to fire them.

The one thing I vididly recall is how much those Rhade loved to train. Same same with M16's in August 68. We suspected after an ambush they/ some yards were afraid of the claymore, so; we got in an open field with steel pots on and each yard blew one after each of us SF blew one out in the open. They were all airborne qualified, too. They learned that like we did. These men became lethal from already very proficient Infantrymen. These are the things I hope our Infantry knows. Yes, we had grenade throwing contests, too. Add squad, platoon, and company tactics. Add map reading and much more.

Training is the best insurance policy in war.