New Hampshire Court Deems Girl 'Too Christian'; Must Attend Government School

[Richard]

I'm sure this truck driver would have done better for his son if he listened to the latest psycho-babble from the public school.

Perhaps...but we can never know now.

After all, the public system has been producing a marvelous stream of self-reliant individuals lately.

I'm a product of public and state university schooling, as is my wife and our siblings, and all of our children. We have and - I can only assume - will continue to lead productive lives as hard working, self reliant, individualistic thinking, civic minded citizens of a great, albeit flawed, society.

Of my three sons, one is an environmental chemical engineer, one is a long-haul truck driver, and one is now doing his student teaching and preparing his senior art show in preparation to graduate from college in December with a BS (major is biology, minor is fine arts with teaching credential - and he wants to go to med school and become a medical illustrator. He also has illustrated three novels - one published and two currently in production).

As for their education, our guidelines were that they would finish high school and then should seek further schooling - but that would be their choice. And as far a career choice, the only parameters we put on them was that it should be something they enjoyed and had an aptitude for doing, something from which they could earn a living, and something that was legal - beyond that, it was their choice, not ours.

Public schools - as with charter schools, private schools, parochial schools, e-schools, and home schools - run the gamut in the quality of the education (or indoctrination, as your postings infer) they offer - and all are responsible for producing some of the most productive and least productive of our nation's citizens. Based on their documented histories, I can only assume that they will continue to do so in the future.

Richard's public school educated $.02

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

You are in error if you think my previous comment reflects condescension on my part.
I urge you to take responsibility for your own affective state.
Your comments speak for themselves.
I disagree.

Urge away.

Let me be plain, Sigaba.

Richard will receive from me a degree of deference and recognition.
This is his house.
I am not his peer.

He has well-established credentials and expertise.
His rebukes will be accepted as authoritative and carry weight as I continually form thoughts and opinions on the matter.


Who are you?
Some stranger on the internet who presumes to scold me through innuendo on my parenting.

Concerning my own children, you are some distant person in possession of an opinion.
I am living through it and possess the facts.

Your innuendo-laced posts are quite ironic considering the topic of this thread.


I am more than happy to carry on a banter.
However, if you wish to receive some sort of deference or recognition then demonstrate that you have comensurate achievements which apply.

Racking up 1000+ long-winded posts in under 13 months is not enough to receive deference or recognition from me.

You speak towards me with an air of great authority.
Back it up. What are your quals?

[Sigaba]

My position has changed.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

I have thick skin.

I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

What are your quals?

Would you be asking this question if you perceived that I agreed with your views of power, public education, or parenting?

What qualifies me for your "deference or recognition" is you. If you really did not care what I think--and a surprising number of people don't--you'd not persist in soliciting my thoughts. Nor would you then spend time trying to disqualify the legitimacy of (your perception of) those thoughts. However, my view remains unchanged: your posts speak for themselves.

Please do me the courtesy of not making additional allegations of innuendo or condescension.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

1000+ long-winded posts

Ouch! Well, back to the drawing board.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Ouch! Well, back to the drawing board.

See? Short-winded posts would elevate the post count more quickly.

Once upon a time, I heard about the MPU - minimum publishable unit. Slice and dice one good paper into three little papers, so you build your list of publications more quickly. Now those were words of wisdom!

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by nmap

See? Short-winded posts would elevate the post count more quickly.

Once upon a time, I heard about the MPU - minimum publishable unit. Slice and dice one good paper into three little papers, so you build your list of publications more quickly. Now those were words of wisdom!

Saturday Night Live had a contest back in the 1970s. The prize was getting to host the show for a week. Contestants were instructed to send a statement saying, in three words or less, why they wanted to host the show.

After two days of effort, I gave up trying to surpass Chevy Chase's example "Me wanna host."

[The Reaper]

Quiet.

Professional.

These should not be just for SF personnel. Your are all guests in our house.

Drop the personal attacks and innuendo. Now.

TR

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Richard

I'm a product of public and state university schooling, as is my wife and our siblings, and all of our children. We have and - I can only assume - will continue to lead productive lives as hard working, self reliant, individualistic thinking, civic minded citizens of a great, albeit flawed, society.

Of my three sons, one is an environmental chemical engineer, one is a long-haul truck driver, and one is now doing his student teaching and preparing his senior art show in preparation to graduate from college in December with a BS (major is biology, minor is fine arts with teaching credential - and he wants to go to med school and become a medical illustrator. He also has illustrated three novels - one published and two currently in production).

As for their education, our guidelines were that they would finish high school and then should seek further schooling - but that would be their choice. And as far a career choice, the only parameters we put on them was that it should be something they enjoyed and had an aptitude for doing, something from which they could earn a living, and something that was legal - beyond that, it was their choice, not ours.

Public schools - as with charter schools, private schools, parochial schools, e-schools, and home schools - run the gamut in the quality of the education (or indoctrination, as your postings infer) they offer - and all are responsible for producing some of the most productive and least productive of our nation's citizens. Based on their documented histories, I can only assume that they will continue to do so in the future.

Richard's public school educated $.02

Well put, sir.

First, let me apologize for stacking kindling.
My hyperbole and rhetoric have been too loose.
This has not served to promote effective discussion.
I should have been following your example from the beginning.

In the interest of avoiding thread-hopping, comments regarding related issues will be condensed here.

My rantings against the public education system are rooted partially in frustrations with an ever-growing government.

As you have stated, public education is well decentralized.
My fear is for the direction of the trend.
IMO, further decentralization would be better.

My parents were both career school teachers, mainly in the public sector.
I believe it is a noble profession and applaud those who answer the calling.

This is the greatest country on Earth and the education system does work.
However, I believe it works because of a sufficient supply motivated, exceptional teachers and not because of the general system design.

Another of my fears is that the system design will tend to drive away those who perform the miracle of making the system work.
Many who answer the call will not be driven away, but will a critical mass remain?

Despite my libertarian leanings, and the fact that my children are in private school, I am not for the voucher system.
While I believe liberals are trying to undermine the system from within, conservatives would inadvertantly destroy it from without.
Better the devil you do know than the devil you don't.

I stand by the description of "diluted priorities" which was mentioned in the other thread.
That was my parents assessment, I have no reason to doubt them.
YMMV.


The changes I would like to see:
-No compulsory attendance, but students should have to pass tests with clear standards in order to promote.
Results should count, not jumping through hoops.

-All administrators should teach at least half time.
Everyone in the system should teach and have a vested interest.
Top-heavy bureaucracies tend to grow and become self-perpetuating.

-Federal funding should decrease. No long-term good can come of this.


Concerning the specific issue of this thread:
I don't know the totality of the circumstance in N.H.
It is parent vs. parent. Only they know.

In the case of parent vs. the state, I believe that our country should err on the side of the parent because they have more intimate knowledge of what exactly their child requires.
While this path may sometimes lead to tragic consequences in some cases, I believe erring on the side of the state will inevitably lead to much more dire consequences for all.


Concerning children:
The younger children will remain in private school until the 6th grade.
After that, it will probably vary from child to child.
Each of them are different.

My oldest was told he would make his decisions, and deal with the consequences.
We also told him we would generally support whatever path he chose, provided it was not immoral, illegal, or unreasonably dangerous.
It is his life.
He took his GED at 16 and was done.
His test scores significantly exceeded those of most high-school graduates.
He is my step-son and the circumstances with his upbringing had many challenges.


Thank you, Richard, for your insight and tolerance.



One final note.
About 16 months ago, things were not looking good for my oldest.
I was having a few beers with a QP from this board, and he spoke of how he dealt with his sons.
It granted a critical bit of insight which helped turn the corner in bringing up my own son.

I never did formally thank him.
Time to get to the PMs.

[ZonieDiver]

Grateful Citizen makes some good points. I especially like this one, which I have advocated for a long time:

-All administrators should teach at least half time.
Everyone in the system should teach and have a vested interest.
Top-heavy bureaucracies tend to grow and become self-perpetuating.

My suggestion has gone beyond "administrators" to all "certified" personnel - specifically counselors and "curriculum specialists." (Our curriculum specialist constantly refers to her lonnnnng ago HS science classes as an example. A colleague who had a room next to hers at that time doesn't have quite the same memories of her classroom expertise.

Couldn't hurt!

[Richard]

Some valid observations - just a couple of points for consideration:

-No compulsory attendance, but students should have to pass tests with clear standards in order to promote.

Forebrain developmental issues (maturity + temptation + boredom + < supervision = ) and neighborhood crime stats argue against the idea - as well-intentioned as it may be or as reasonable asit may seem.

All administrators should teach at least half time.

Although it sounds like a reasonable notion, consideration has to be made for the fact that not all teachers make (made) good administrators and not all administrators make (made) good teachers - and competency or excellence in one area does not necessarily equate to such in the other.

A similar example can be made for commanders and staff officers/NCOs in the military.

I'm more for a better selection process, mandated on-going authentic performance reviews combined with task-oriented professional education, and a system that more readily allows for 'relief for cause' for sub-par performance at all levels.

Federal funding should decrease. No long-term good can come of this.

Concur. Funding has always been an issue - always will be - and one of the reaons I remain a strong proponent for non-profit schools which accept no government grant monies and - therefore - all the unnecessary 'strings' which are attached to them. Many schools/school systems now have full-time grant writers whose mission is to seek and procure such $$.

Richard's $.02

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Richard

Although it sounds like a reasonable notion, consideration has to be made for the fact that not all teachers make (made) good administrators and not all administrators make (made) good teachers - and competency or excellence in one area does not necessarily equate to such in the other.

A similar example can be made for commanders and staff officers/NCOs in the military.

Very true, Richard. I would also mention that some teachers don't make good teachers, either. A principal may not have the skill and experience of his/her 'NCO' teachers, but like a good commander, he/she should at least understand the basic skill set involved, be able to perform them to a rudimentary level in order to know 'what right looks like', and most importantly have the authority and will to relieve a poorly performing teacher for cause, as you aptly stated.

Many of the problems I see in the private school my oldest attends can be directly connected to a complete lack of leadership (and ownership) by the principal.

[nmap]

At the risk of tossing gasoline on burning embers...

First, a small disclosure - with the exception of my undergrad degree, I've always been in the public schools. The undergrad degree was at a private university, and represents a period still filled with pleasant memories.

Second disclosure - I understand that Wikipedia is not exactly a high-quality reference. Still worse, the one I'm about to use has some notes on it.

That said, the material seems to suggest the outcome of our existing educational system is not everything we might prefer. Here's a quote:

The National Center for Education Statistics provides more detail. Literacy is broken down into three parameters: prose, document, and quantitative literacy. Each parameter has four levels: below basic, basic, intermediate, and proficient. For prose literacy, for example, a below basic level of literacy means that a person can look at a short piece of text to get a small piece of uncomplicated information; while a person who is below basic in quantitative literacy would be able to do simple addition. In the US, 14% of the adult population is at the "below basic" level for prose literacy; 12% are at the "below basic" level for document literacy; and 22% are at that level for quantitative literacy. Only 13% of the population is proficient in these three areas—able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activity; or compute and compare the cost per ounce of food items.



LINK

By the way - I've known a distressingly large number of college students who could not grasp what was meant by a requirement for a 500 word essay. They were surprised when they got a 60 base grade for a 300 word essay.

So - if this is true, and if parents discern it to be true, then it is difficult to blame them for seeking an alternative. On the other hand, if its false, thus creating concern where none should exist, then it seems a communication problem exists. It is my inclination to believe the report, but that may just be my gloomy outlook.

Thoughts?

[Richard]

The NCES info is all to be found here:

http://nces.ed.gov/

As far as the stats mentioned by nmap:

National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL)

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=69

Adults age 16 or older were assessed in three types of literacy (prose, document, and quantitative) in 1992 and 2003. Literacy is defined as "using printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one’s goals, and to develop one’s knowledge and potential." The average prose and document literacy scores of U.S. adults were not measurably different in 2003 from 1992, but the average quantitative literacy score increased 8 points between these years.

One measure of literacy is the percentage of adults who perform at four achievement levels: Below Basic, Basic, Intermediate, and Proficient. In each type of literacy, 13 percent of adults were at or above Proficient (indicating they possess the skills necessary to perform complex and challenging literacy activities) in 2003. Twenty-two percent of adults were Below Basic (indicating they possess no more than the most simple and concrete literacy skills) in quantitative literacy, compared with 14 percent in prose literacy and 12 percent in document literacy.

Using those stats, 65% of Americans fall within the Basic to Intermediate levels of literacy - not an entirely unexpected norm.

Richard's $.02

[nmap]

Using those stats, 65% of Americans fall within the Basic to Intermediate levels of literacy - not an entirely unexpected norm.

As you say, an entirely reasonable norm.

Thank you for finding that - I've used the NCES site a little, but I missed the report you located.

[Defend]

I'd like to weigh in on the initial subject matter of this thread - court ordering the girl to go to public school, in addition to arguments for or against the merits of home schooling. I'm about to give a lot of background on myself - it's not for self promotion, but to give you an idea what a home school background has enabled me to do.

This case hits close to home, as I was home schooled from the age of 3 until I graduated high school at 17. Along the way, my parents split and a custody struggle ensued. All of us children were required to undergo an evaluation by a shrink. I was deemed to be lacking in some childhood characteristics, and my mother was put under a court order not to discuss court proceedings our rulings with me. I was 16 at the time, and those proceedings were public record (heh.. never tell a debater he isn't allowed knowing a court ruling).

The counselor's reasoning? I expressed concern over the safety of my younger siblings because of violent outbursts from my father, which was said to demonstrate an elevated sense of responsibility not typical of children my age. I was also prevented from testifying, even though I had received threats and had witnessed attempts to manipulate the kids (myself included).

Leaving out the messy details, my mother was able to prove that I had been sufficiently educated (demonstrated by test scores, extra-curricular achievements, three service academy nominations, and an ROTC scholarship). If I had been 10, the fruits of her efforts wouldn't have been evident yet. Odds are I would have been moved to a public school - which would have prevented me from achieving many of the accomplishments I have up to this point.

As far as the accusation that the daughters education consists of starting at a computer screen in the corner of the bedroom, I'm shocked nobody else pointed out the concession that she took several classes at a local school. That is outside of the bedroom, is it not? The bedroom accusation appears to be false. Additionally, unlike students in a traditional environment, home educated students are able to work at their own pace. I usually did my work closed in my bedroom. I would usually finish my work for the day in a matter of 3 or 4 hours (sometimes longer, sometimes less). "Attendance" was self-enforced. Mom always said if I wanted to play hookie she knew I could get away with it - I could be doing anything under the sun in my room and she wouldn't be any the wiser until it came time for tests. Even then, she knew I could cheat if I wanted to. But I never did, because I knew that the test score would be an evaluation of whether I knew the material - not a benchmark required to stay with my friends. For me cheating would have defeated the purpose of studying! If I wanted to learn, it was up to me. I had to take initiative and have the self control to do my work.

Here's what I see when I read the articles posted above: An angry father, an intelligent daughter, a dedicated mother, a court system that disapproves of home schooling. It wouldn't be the first time the courts were abhorred by an intelligent child that showed maturity beyond her years. Didn't we used to encourage diligence to studies?

As far as exposure to outside opinions, just because she studies at home doesn't mean she is isolated from opinions - and who is the court to say what or when conflicting opinions should be presented to a child?

I was raised with the beliefs of my mother (to some extent my father as well). When I was around 12, I began researching other opinions - this included everything from reading liberal news sources (which I had been exposed to from a young age, but not in excess) to the Qur'an to Jewish apologetic books. Although I believe in a literal 6-day creation, I have studied the evolutionary theory (mostly through secular sources - enough to know I don't put any stock in it). I am fully capable of looking at two sides of any argument, and determining which side I agree with. I am also capable of comprehending, analyzing, and presenting the opposing viewpoint and defending it, in most arguments. I grew up learning to learn, not learning to copy.

I got to my state university, I lived with guys I whole-heartedly disagreed with. We got along. When arguments arose, I addressed them civilly, and walked away from that first semester more sure of my beliefs than when I got there. GPA was 3.3 - not amazing, not terrible. btw that included a category IV and a category III language. Then I went and lived in a rough, anti-western neighborhood in a city in the Middle East while I studied Islam, Politics, and Arabic at a government university in an Islamic State, and came out with a pretty good GPA (3.0) and pretty much functional in the local dialect (which I learned on my own, not part of the university program). Most American students there were liberals either working on their masters or in their senior year of undergrad. I disagreed with most of them on most issues. But we could discuss them, I would tone down my side (and leave out the whole military affiliation part;-)) and it would all be good.

Here's the point. I am the product of a very "traditional" home school education. I'm not suffering from it. I don't have to go to counseling because I found out not everybody agrees with me. My faith is my own, which I have willingly expressed in front of atheists, Buddhists, moderate and radical Muslims, Jews, and a whole host of other religions. It is not something I simply inherited. And by the way when I was 10 I was known for engaging conversations with well educated adults on matters ranging from electronic theory to theology to politics - easily branded as not enough of a child. I for one hope that this girl gets the same opportunities I did and doesn't turn out a cookie cutter product of the NJ school system.

"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"

- out

[GratefulCitizen]

An article on the issue:
http://townhall.com/columnists/KenKl...hildrens_minds