Pan Am 103 bomber to go home

[Richard]

AND ANOTHER THING!!!!

The situation is a lot more complicated than that and - as demonstrated - all sides appear to have come to a consensus that to effectively deal with it requires a coordinated effort of all available resources combined with an on-going, rigorous debate to adjust the use of those resouces as the situation dictates.

Richard's $.02

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Praetorian

AND ANOTHER THING!!!!


There has been a policy debate in this country, for the last 15 years, about how to respond to terrorism.

One political party views it as an overt act of war, best left to the various branches of the armed forces to deal with.

The other political party insists it should be a criminal matter, left to law enforcement agencies and the Courts to sort out.

The injustice of this event should show the world why the criminal justice system is woefully unable to handle these acts of calculated mass murder, and should act as an anchor around the neck of the next politician who suggests we return to the latter policy.

Where would Bush the Younger fit into your matrix?

On June 9, 2005, in a speech on the Patriot Act, he pointed out:

We've made terrorism the top priority for law enforcement, and we've provided unprecedented resources to help folks like yourselves do their jobs.

Since 2001, we've more than tripled spending on homeland security; we've increased funding more than tenfold for the first-responders who protect our homeland. Law enforcement officers stand between our people and great danger, and we're making sure you have the tools necessary to do your job.*

Or, for that matter, where would you place Bush the Elder? On 27 January 1989, on the occasion of James A. Baker III being sworn in as secretary of state, the first President Bush said:

In another era, the Secretary of State's role was largely confined to matters of war and peace. Today's world is much more complex than that -- more dangerous, too. Today's Secretary of State must be prepared to work with our allies to solve such global threats as the international narcotics trade, terrorism, the degradation of the world's environment, and the economic distress of developing countries.**

For his part, in 1986, via proclamation, President Reagan affirmed his commitment to fight terrorism using all of the means of American power at his disposal.

The United States has a clear policy of combatting [sic] terrorism and of refusing to make concessions to terrorists. We have sought cooperation with all nations, on both a bilateral and a multilateral basis, to fight terrorism. We have put those who would instigate acts of terrorism against U.S. citizens or property on notice that we will vigorously confront this criminal behavior in every way -- diplomatically, economically, legally, and, when necessary, militarily. We have demonstrated our resolve.***

____________________________________
* Source is here
** Source is here.
*** Source is here,

[Praetorian]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Where would Bush the Younger fit into your matrix?

Clearly Bush would be in the "its a war" camp. As commander in Chief he has used the U.S. Military to kill more terrorists than all other previous administrations combined have brought to justice.

Nobody argues that law enforcement has NO ROLE in the fight against terrorism. The most serious threat from terrorism is that which is staged and targeted within the borders of the U.S. and the posse comitatus generally prevents the military from being involved with that directly.... But one side does argue that the PRIMARY RESPONSE to international terrorism should be through Law Enforcement, with little or no role for the military. It has campaigned on that platform, and from what we've learned in the years since 9/11, for the 8 years of the Clinton administration governed as such. It was a "Nuisance" to be treated as such. With no real will to take the actions necessary to hunt down and punish those responsible.




John McCain on Terrorsim:

Barack Obama's belief that we should treat terrorists as nothing more than common criminals demonstrates a stunning and alarming misunderstanding of the threat we face from radical Islamic extremism. Obama holds up the prosecution of the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993 as a model for his administration, when in fact this failed approach of treating terrorism simply as a matter of law enforcement rather than a clear and present danger to the United States contributed to the tragedy of September 11th. This is change that will take us back to the failed policies of the past and every American should find this mindset troubling.

Bush on Terrorism :

This war cannot be won, if we treat terrorism primarily as a matter of law enforcement. The lesson of this experience is: In this war, we must use all assets of national power to keep the pressure on the enemy, keep the terrorists on the run, and keep the American people safe from harm. August 20, 2008

Dick Cheney on Terrorism : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T55v_SDdUlQ

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kerry On Terrorism :

Terrorism is primarily an intelligence and law enforcement operation that requires cooperation around the world — the very thing this [Bush] administration is worst at.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0403300858.asp


Obama on Terrorsim :

[L]et's take the example of Guantanamo. What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks — for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center, we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated.

And the fact that the administration has not tried to do that has created a situation where not only have we never actually put many of these folks on trial, but we have destroyed our credibility when it comes to rule of law all around the world, and given a huge boost to terrorist recruitment in countries that say, "Look, this is how the United States treats Muslims."

So that, I think, is an example of something that was unnecessary. We could have done the exact same thing, but done it in a way that was consistent with our laws.

As far as GHWB and Ronald Reagen go, I think they were both wrong on how they approached terrorism.... I put together a little flow chart showing how far back the "lets arrest them and put them in prison" (or worse. let somebody ELSE put them in prison) approach has been back-firing. MANY of those atrocities occurred during the time of their administrations. (These were just the ones that came to mind... I'm sure Ive missed a few...)

September 6, 1972- Black September murders eleven Olympic Athletes at the Munich games.

October 29, 1972 (52 days later)- The three surviving terrorists are released by Germany and sent to Libya in exchange for a “hijacked” Lufthansa Jet (It is later widely alleged that the “Hijacking” was staged by German officials as a ruse to rid themselves of the terrorists).

_______________

June 14, 1985 Hezbollah Hijacks TWA Flight 847, murdering one U.S. Navy sailor. In 1987, the only Hijacker to be arrested and tried for the murder of the sailor is convicted and sentenced to life in prison in Germany.

December 20, 2005- (18 years) Germany releases the hijacker and he is returned to Lebanon.


_______________________

October 7, 1985- The Palestine Liberation Front hijacks the Cruise ship Achille Lauro- Killing one American.

The Mastermind, Abu Abbas was immediately released by Italy (a few days in custody).
Two of the Hijackers were granted parole in 1991 (six years). A third in 1996 (11 Years).
_______________________


September 5, 1986- Abu Nidal Hijacks Pan Am flight 73, killing 20 and wounding 150 more. On July 6, 1988, Five of the Hijackers are sentenced to death by Pakistan.

January 4, 2004- (16 years later) Four of the hijackers are released by Pakistan and sent to Palestine.

_____________________



October 12, 2000- Al Qaeda bombs the U.S.S. Cole killing 19 American Sailors. September 29, 2004 Yeman sentences two members of Al Qaeda to death, and several others to various terms in prison.

February 23, 2006- (1,960 days) Those convicted of the U.S. S. Cole bombing (including those sentenced to death) “escape” from prison (I put escape in quotes as this is actually the SECOND time prisoners associated with the Cole Bombing escaped from Yemani custody). October 17, 2007- One of the escapees who is sentenced to death is recaptured by Yemani officials but released on condition that he not engage in terrorism any more.

-------------------------------------

Acts of terrorism for which NOBODY has ever been brought to justice-

April 18, 1983- Hezbollah suicide bomber destroys the U.S. Embassy in Beirut- 63 Killed

October 23, 1983- Hezbollah suicide truck bombs destroy the USMC barracks in Lebanon- 241 Killed

March 6, 1984- Beirut CIA Chief William Buckley kidnaped & murdered by Hezbollah.

February 17, 1988- USMC Colonel William Higgins kidnaped & murdered by Hezbollah.

June 25, 1996- Truck bomb destroys the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia- 20 Killed.

[jlcoad]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

As long as they use their time wisely.

Well put.

I hate to admit that the spelling error was unintentional and so was the pun..

[Stras]

How fitting would it have been for this guy to watch the pilots walk by him wearing parachutes and bail out at 25,000 ft. and then his TV monitor in the back of the seat in front of him turn on with a countdown of 10 min......

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

As long as they use their time wisely.

LOL!

[Richard]

In the event, however, Scottish ministers rejected Megrahi’s application to return under the transfer agreement. Instead, they granted him compassionate release and his conviction stands.

In pondering all this, the historian in me recalls some of the events of my generation - such as 2LT William Calley - who personally murdered 22 unarmed non-combatants and was the OIC of a platoon responsible for the deaths of over 500 unarmed non-combatants - including a number who were raped or mutilated - is sentenced by Court Martial to life imprisonment...but serves 3 years of 'house arrest' , never goes to prison, and never expresses remorse for his actions.

But I guess you woulda had to have been there.

There isn't any way to libel the human race.
- Mark Twain in Eruption

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Richard

".... - such as 2LT William Calley - who personally murdered 22 unarmed non-combatants and was the OIC of a platoon responsible for the deaths of over 500 unarmed non-combatants -....."

"Ex-Vietnam lieutenant apologizes for massacre"

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US


"COLUMBUS, Ga. (AP) -- Speaking in a soft, sometimes labored voice, the only U.S. Army officer convicted in the 1968 slayings of Vietnamese civilians at My Lai made an extraordinary public apology while speaking to a small group near the military base where he was court-martialed.

"There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened that day in My Lai," William L. Calley told members of a local Kiwanis Club, the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer reported Friday. "I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry."....."

[Richard]

"There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened that day in My Lai," William L. Calley told members of a local Kiwanis Club, the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer reported Friday. "I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry."

We can now correct the record - he has recently expressed remorse.

Richard

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Pete

"Ex-Vietnam lieutenant apologizes for massacre"

Last Week! 1968. . . 1978 . . .1988 . . .1998 . . .2008 . . . 2009.
41 YEARS to come to the conclusion he did a bad thing and should say so? Oh well, I feel better now.
Actually, NOW I feel bad. As a young 2LT in IOBC I took the advice of one of my instructors* to "go walk by the jewelry store his wife owns if you want to see a murderer who disgraced the Infantry, the United States Army and the Entire Country".
Lt Calley, please accept my sincerest apology for staring at you 32 years ago.

This is what you said, "I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry."....."
Didn't you mean, "I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who I murdered, for their families, for the American soldiers I led who were murderers, and their families. I am very sorry."....."

* This same instructor supposedly "accidentally" pushed a cinder-block out a 2nd story window on to the windshield of the new Corvette owned by a soon to be dismissed IOBC classmate.

[incarcerated]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Ten's of thousands dancing in the streets celebrating the release of a convicted terrorist, murdering coward bastard.

An "islamic" hero's welcome.

islam will never defeat the West, we will do that ourselves.

Bush had Gadhafi in check. Under BHO, it's a reversal of course: it's all about respect for Islam. And it seems to be contagious.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-23-voa10.cfm

Uproar Over Swiss Apology to Libya

By Lisa Schlein
Geneva
23 August 2009

Switzerland is in an uproar over the government's decision to apologize to Libyan leader, Muammar Gadhafi, for the arrest of his son and daughter-in-law last year in Geneva for abusing their domestic servants. Libya had demanded an apology as the price of re-establishing normal relations.
Criminal charges against Muammar Gadhafi's son, Hannibal and his pregnant daughter-in-law were dropped after the two abused domestic servants reached an out-of court settlement and withdrew their complaint.

Nevertheless, Libya was quick to retaliate against this insult. It arrested two Swiss businessmen, threatened to cut off crude oil deliveries, withdrew its money from Swiss banks, and told Swiss International Air Lines it could no longer fly to Tripoli.

Mr. Gadhafi demanded an apology for the so-called unjustified arrest of his son and daughter-in-law as the price for letting the Swiss nationals return home and for ending economic sanctions.

The government resisted this demand for more than a year. But, finally gave in. The Swiss president Hans-Rudolf Merz went to Tripoli to personally apologize to leader Gadhafi....

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



The Leader of the Free World could have prevented this mass-murdering terrorist's release, except that we do not have one. We don't even have a Fearless Leader: we have a Leader Hopeful of Change who is eager to demonstrate the West's respect for Islam, and has made this respect a matter of national policy.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...000#post280000


.

[nmap]

An update. It seems that BP found a Libyan oil field.

Imagine that. Politics and money intruded into the process.

LINK

DURING the past year a small ship bristling with computers and seismic equipment has been crisscrossing the Gulf of Sidra, in the Mediterranean off the Libyan coast. Its mission: to help to find BP’s next offshore oilfields.

The company’s search for oil off Libya and in a 20,000-mile area in the west of the country potentially offers as much as £15 billion in new revenue. But less than two years ago it was feared that the deal could founder — and the reason was wrangling over Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi, the jailed Lockerbie bomber.

BP was finally given the go-ahead six weeks after a volte-face by the British government to include Megrahi in a prisoner transfer agreement with Libya under which prisoners could serve out sentences in their home countries. Jack Straw, the justice secretary, revealed this decision in a letter to his Scottish counterpart. He cited “wider negotiations” and the “overwhelming interests of the United Kingdom”.

Sources in the UK and Tripoli said last week that those wider interests included BP’s hoped-for share of Libya’s untapped oil and gas reserves. The decision to include Megrahi in the prisoner transfer arrangement was seen by Libyan officials as paving the way for his release — and BP’s much-coveted deal was finally ratified.

BP last week denied the agreement was influenced by talks over prisoner transfers and specifically Megrahi. But other sources insist the two were clearly linked. Saad Djebbar, an international lawyer who advises the Libyan government and who visited Megrahi in jail in Scotland, said: “No one was in any doubt that if alMegrahi died in a Scottish prison it would have serious repercussions for many years which would be to the disadvantage of British industry.”

Lord Mandelson, the business secretary, said last weekend: “The idea that the British government and the Libyan government would sit down and somehow barter over the freedom or the life of this Libyan prisoner and make it form part of some business deal ... it’s not only wrong, it’s completely implausible and actually quite offensive.”

The detailed correspondence seen by The Sunday Times confirms that the Lockerbie bomber’s fate was regarded by the UK government as pivotal to relations with Libya. It also shows how anxious the government was to curry favour with Colonel Muammar Gadaffi by being seen to open the way for Megrahi’s release.

The government now faces new questions over its exact role in trade talks and whether or not it favoured Megrahi. William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, is calling for full disclosure of whether commercial contracts for oil were discussed as part of the negotiations for the Libya-UK prisoner transfer treaty.

In the 1980s — after the shooting of a British policewoman outside the Libyan embassy in London and the Lockerbie bombing which claimed 270 lives — Libya was an international outcast. But the past decade has seen a remarkable transformation, with the country dismantling its weapons of mass destruction.

Tony Blair helped with Gadaffi’s diplomatic rehabilitation, taking high-profile trips to Libya in 2004 and 2007. At the second meeting, when an unkempt and unshaven Gadaffi met Blair in a tent in the desert, it was announced that the two countries had agreed a memorandum of understanding covering civil and criminal legal co-operation, extradition and prison transfer.

Questions were immediately asked whether the arrangement would cover Megrahi, who was convicted in 2001 for taking part in the bombing and sentenced to life imprisonment. Downing Street insisted the agreement would not lead to his release. “The memorandum of understanding agreed with the Libyan government does not cover this case,” said a spokesman at the time.

During Blair’s 2007 visit, BP signed its exploration deal with Libya’s National Oil Corporation. “This is a welcome return to the country and represents a significant opportunity for both BP and Libya to deliver our long-term growth aspirations,” said Tony Hayward, BP group chief executive, who signed the contract with Blair looking on.

The prisoner transfer agreement — and specifically the fate of Megrahi — were inextricably linked with the BP deal. Six months after Blair’s trip, and with Gordon Brown in No 10, the Libyans were frustrated that the prisoner transfer agreement had not even been drafted. The BP contract was also waiting to be ratified.

The key reason for the delay in the prisoner transfer agreement was Megrahi. Lord Falconer, who was Blair’s justice secretary, had told the Scottish government in a letter on June 22, 2007 that “any prisoner transfer agreement with Libya could not cover al-Megrahi”.

Straw, appointed justice secretary by Brown, set out his favoured option for excluding Megrahi in another letter the following month.

The Libyans were furious and the BP deal — in which £545m would be spent on exploration alone — was an ace in their hand.

“Nobody doubted that Libya wanted BP and BP was confident its commitment would go through,” said Sir Richard Dalton, a former British ambassador to Libya and a director of the Libyan British Business Council. “But the timing of the final authority to spend real money on the ground was dependent on politics.”

The Libyans insisted that Megrahi must be covered by the prisoner transfer agreement. The government relented and Straw was forced into a U-turn. “I have not been able to secure an explicit exclusion,” he wrote in a letter to Kenny MacAskill, his Scottish counterpart.

“The wider negotiations with the Libyans are reaching a critical stage and in view of the overwhelming interests for the United Kingdom, I have agreed in this instance the [prisoner transfer agreement] should be in the standard form and not mention any individual.”

Six weeks later BP announced its deal had been ratified.

Negotiations over the release of Megrahi had been spearheaded by Gadaffi’s son, Saif. He was also courting influential figures and financiers in Russia, America and the UK to improve his country’s image and forge new business links.

Brown Lloyd James, a public relations firm with offices in London and New York, has opened an office in Tripoli. It is reported to have placed articles by Colonel Gadaffi in American newspapers. The firm would not comment last week.

One of the firm’s founders is Peter Brown, an old friend of Mandelson. The business secretary, who has stayed with Brown on the Caribbean island of St Barts, said this weekend that he could not recollect discussing Libya with anyone from Brown Lloyd James.

It is perhaps inevitable that the high-powered and wealthy figures who mix with Saif Gadaffi also pass through Mandelson’s orbit. Mutual associates include Lord Rothschild, his son Nat, and the Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska, whose company Rusal has interests in Libya.

To Deripaska and Nat Rothschild, Saif Gadaffi is an invaluable business contact. They were invited to his 37th birthday party in Montenegro, where they are both investors in a new marina development.

There is some bafflement in Tripoli that British ministers are not talking up the possible business opportunities of an even more cordial relationship.

Djebbar said: “Britain can continue with this political absurdity [of recriminations] or get their businesses to take advantage of the goodwill towards them.”

Megrahi said public focus should be on identifying the perpetrators of the Lockerbie bombing. In an interview published yesterday, Megrahi, who insists he is innocent, said: “We all want to know the truth. I support the issue of a public inquiry. ”

[incarcerated]

A little more on Gaddafi, again in sharp contrast to his status during the Bush Administration:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53399

Parade of Despots Heading For New York

Wednesday, September 02, 2009
By Patrick Goodenough, International Editor
(CNSNews.com) – The usual September parade of world leaders descending on New York City for the opening of the annual United Nations General Assembly will be characterized this year by the presence of some of the world’s most controversial figures.

Likely to provoke the most ire this year will be Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, who plans his first visit ever to the United States at a time when his emergence from international isolation has been set back by the release of the Libyan convicted in the Lockerbie bombing. Of the 270 people killed when the New York-bound Pan Am Flight 103 was blown up after taking off from London in 1988, 189 were Americans.

Gaddafi’s plans to erect his customary Bedouin tent in the grounds of a property in New Jersey owned by the Libyan Embassy were shelved after locals protested.

But his presence will still be provocative, with families of Lockerbie victims and the American Libyan Freedom Alliance among those planning to protest.

The alliance, which says its objective is to promote democracy, human rights and the rule of law in Libya, said it had expressed its disappointment to U.S. and U.N. officials about the planned attendance by Gaddafi “despite all his well documented international and domestic crimes.”

Gaddafi, who on Tuesday marked the 40th anniversary of his seizure of power, is scheduled to speak after President Obama, in his capacity as chairman of the African Union.

....Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was one of the few non-African leaders to attend celebrations on Aug. 31, 2009 marking the 40th anniversary of the coup that brought Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to power....

[T-Rock]

Considering Raila Odinga's biggest supporters were al-Qadhafi and Obama, I'm just curios how close their relationship actually is

Whitehall said US President Obama and Hillary Clinton's reaction to Abdelbaset Al Megrahi's release was 'disingenuous'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ie-bomber.html

So much for Obama's feigned response...

[incarcerated]

Originally Posted by T-Rock

Considering Raila Odinga's biggest....

On first reading, I was sure that I'd had that, right after high school. It was pretty uncomfortable, and the dermatologist couldn't do a thing for it.
Then I did the Google search.
http://www.raila07.com/
He's got a little work to do on his use of the Teleprompter. We both know someone who can help him with that, and who probably owes Raila Odinga a favor.