Competition Shooting

[RichL025]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

There are other options that may not be as durable in terms of getting beaten up but at least can be depended on to work in adverse weather conditions and are easier for the shooter to see.

Gene

What are your opinions?

RL

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by RichL025

What are your opinions? RL

Rich:

I would try the Leupold MR/T M2 or the Nightforce 1 - 4X 24 NXS with the NP-1 reticle pattern. I believe both of the above are more dependable than the issued ACOG but not as durable in terms of pure abuse.

I opt for any optic that has external elevation and windage knobs. Aside from the fogging issue with the ACOGs, it saves a huge amount of time in zeroing to simply turn a knob. Too many times Joe has lost the little aluminum cap for an ACOG and or its gasket and or has cross threaded it due to the very fine threads. And too many times the 'up' / 'right' arrows on the ACOGs have just disappeared from multiple guys adjusting elevation or windage. When the ACOG loses its tactile clicks, it becomes problematic when adjusting elevation or windage. Downside for the Leupold or Nightforce is that Joe can strip the threads on the screws holding the knobs when slipping them. Or lose the screws.

Joe will be much more tempted to adjust zero given ease of doing so -- despite the potential drawbacks of 'chasing spotters' so to speak. I have seen too many good Riflemen get tired of incessantly having to screw with ACOGs and try to depend on holds because they didn't want to mess with the elevation or windage adjustments anymore. This is due to the little caps and the inability of ACOGs to track. This doesn't hold up when that good rifleman gets put under stress where he must hold and then hold more or less because his zero is off. He would rather have had a good zero than try to hold and hold again. They won't say this to anyone in an AAR so don't expect to see this fact appear anywhere.

You can adjust elevation and windage from position with the dials. You can't with an ACOG. Does it matter? After a few years of DM work among other marksmanship things, it does matter. Having to break position to adjust zero breaks mental focus and takes too much time.

I go with a BDC for DM's and the use of one elevation and holds. I love MOA adjustments myself but reality states otherwise so I go with what Joe will use instead of what he may not have confidence to use. I would rather Joe actually put '300' on his carbine or rifle than have him not be sure in terms of MOA adjustments. He will be more confident with the former than the latter and confidence equates to higher hit probabilities. If he is in an area where he will be shooting at 100 or less -- he can crank the thing down to 100. If he is working an area where he needs 300, he can put on 3 and hold over for 5 or under if he cares. If he thinks he needs 500, he can put on 5 and blast away. That is the end of it for a carbine with issued ball ammo in terms of distances and hit probabilities simply due to mean radius of dispersion.

Not sure if the Nightforce optic has a BDC or not but it should if they expect to sell any to the Army. Blasphemy for my competitive side but reality for Joe.

I like the reticle pattern of the Nightforce NP-1 more than that of the Leupold. Why Leupold put tick marks at ten mil intervals is beyond me. They should have put one tick five minutes left, right, high, and low, and left it at that. The NP-1 has 4 minutes low, left, and right of center to the duplex. Good enough for hasty estimation of range and holds. Not what I want but what they offer. Left to right, 4 into 20" is 5 hundred. That is it for the issued carbine and issued ball ammo so why more lines? Also, I have yet to meet a DM or sniper who used either the mil dot reticle or the stadia lines on an ACOG to estimate range unless they were under absolutely no stress what so ever. In other words, every single one of them put a elevation on their rifle before the mission and used a hold if they thought they needed one. Not one I interviewed following their deployment ever adjusted an elevation knob or windage knob while in contact. Not one. Period.

Sorry for those who think that more lines, dots, or tick marks are cool. More lines, dots, or tick marks means you have to break your focus to figure out what line, dot, or tick mark to use.

Not sure what folks think an SDM can do with what he has or the training he gets. They are very good Riflemen with the advantage of a optic that has magnification so they can see better. They will be far more effective when they have fewer visual stimulus (lines, tick marks, dots), and when they can trust their equipment will maintain a zero. IMHO the ACOG offers nothing but problems to everything I just said so I go with something else.

Fifty dollars please per person who reads this. I accept Pay Pal.

Gene

[kawika]

I dunno man, I just never thought that every soldier in the infantry needs that much accuracy anyways. I've done CMP type shoots and whatnot, but as far as on the battlefield goes with the M-4 more often than not what you need is something that doesn't break. When somebodys actualy shooting at you(the range which you will actually engage someone with m-4, 200 meters), you definately don't have time to be adjusting any windage knobs or anything like that.

Unless of course you a squad designated marksman or the dude carrying the m-25, barret, 300 winmag, etc. Then I see the point. But than again I have weird views anyways. I think every other person should have a gustav and every other person have a mk46

[RichL025]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I go with a BDC for DM's and the use of one elevation and holds...

Fifty dollars please per person who reads this. I accept Pay Pal.

Gene

Gene,

What does "BDC" mean? And I hope you were expecting those fifty bucks in Pineland dollars....

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by RichL025

Gene,

What does "BDC" mean? And I hope you were expecting those fifty bucks in Pineland dollars....

Bullet Drop Compensator

TR

[RichL025]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Bullet Drop Compensator

TR

Ahh, thanks. The smart guys on my last team told me those were voodoo, anyway, and to ignore it. Geez, I can't remember what scopes we had, they were Leupold somethings....

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by RichL025

Ahh, thanks. The smart guys on my last team told me those were voodoo, anyway, and to ignore it. Geez, I can't remember what scopes we had, they were Leupold somethings....

Rich:

The guys put one elevation on the rifle for general needs and normally use holds. Nothing wrong with BDC's for military purposes. Not as precise as 1/4 MOA increments but extremely fast and pecise enough for combat accuracy.

Don't confuse getting zeros on a firing range where things are safe and sound and using the zero in the field. Guys will adjust elevation and even windage if they have a-lot of time on their hands. Given they trust their training and equipment which a number don't.

Gene

[JGarcia]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I work with Regulars and they send guys to Benning for the sniper competition but not Little Rock. I am not sure you guys would accept them as the Wilson matches are for Guard only (?). It wouldn't matter as Regular outfits really aren't interested. A different culture.

The Sniper "training exercise" (competition) the NGMTC runs is called the ISSTE or Inter Service Sniper Training Exercise, and regulars do participate. This year a team from 5th Group won, I believe.

When we say "Wilson Matches" down here, that also includes Armed Forces Skill at Arms" or AFSAM which is open to all active and reserve from US and Allied Forces. Here is a link to 2008 AFSAM participants: http://www.arguard.org/mtu/Documents...TER_Report.rtf
You will notice the list includes teams from active component units (USMC and Allied Nations).

By "Regular Outfits" do you mean active duty line units or just active duty in general? It seems to me that just the Active Duty Army that won't compete (AMU?) I suspect they fear having some difficulty.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

So far I haven't been impressed with the DM courses run by the AMU but don't know what the Guard does. I don't think the AMU courses prepare guys for combat and I know they don't give them much in terms of perfecting marksmanship skills.

Our course is 15 days, I would be happy to send you any of our course materials, ppt., training schedules, etc., if you will reciprocate? We have a class size in the 15 to 20 something students and typically about the same number of instructors and assistant instructors. Students get a great deal of one on one coaching. We also pair up the students; each pair has a spotting scope with tripod and data books. We really hammer them on the data books, hard. Each shot, and the conditions for each shot must be recorded, sight pictures drawn, etc.,

Our first week is all iron sights. First off is a "show us what you can do zero” and 300 and in KD qualification. Most scores are no where near the required expert score… go figure. Afterwards we have a “get your head screwed on straight” fundamentals class – which attempts to undo what they think they know. That is followed with a how to zero properly class, a zero 101 on the why’s, how’s and what for’s of zeroing. Then we pair them up & issue spotting scopes and ACOG's.

Next day is 25M zero, 300 and in Qual …with very different results. The rest of the week includes KD zero KD Practical Exercises, KD Qual, and many classes. Course mid point is a full day of range E classes and Practical Exercises, then UKD qual iron sights out to 600, then back to KD for ACOG zero, ACOG PE’s and ACOG KD qual, then back to UKD for Practical Exercises, then Range E test and UKD qual out to 600.

That's basically it. There is a great deal of coaching going on and I didn't mention all of the classroom time, which seems more important to the students as the training progresses, they have more questions. We don’t leave the range or classroom for chow, they bring it with them and eat when they can; typically in the pits during lulls moving from one firing line to the next. They get a great deal of trigger time which is closely watched, typically there is an instructor with a spotting scope/tripod watching trace and an A/I watching the body, the muzzle, etc.,

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Ask the guys there at Little Rock why they will not allow a sniper team to compete in the Sniper matches unless they are B-4 qualified.

I will ask when we go back to work on Monday, but I would suspect they will say because they want to get more people to attend our Sniper school which awards the B-4 identifier. Sniper cadre puts on ISSTE, I can give you a POC via PM if you wish.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

The guys who shoot High Power and are top of the line have trained their finger to move when their eyes have seen the degree of perfection they know is needed for success. And they move the trigger without moving the barrel.

Concur. As you know that comes with practice, practice which most Soldiers will seldom get.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I wonder exactly what the Army expects out of guys shooting carbines, issued ball, and poor optics (ACOGs).

I am sure you have seen various forms of the “special purpose rifle” or DM rifle, etc., but those are weapons that 90% of line squads are never going to have. A unit could build something that is a little better than an M4. If they used the M16 full auto trigger, an M16A4 upper, an ACOG with appropriate reticle, and maybe if they were lucky they could get Battalion to splurge on some free floating handguards. Issue the Mk 262 round to the DM’s; they could do well with such a set up. This requires no fancy pants arms room work, just a competent armorer and willing S4 and CO.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

So far I haven't heard of a DM blasting someone at ranges past about 200 meters yet the courses seem to emphasize trying to make a worn out carbine and ball ammo function efficiently at 550 meters instead of what a DM will really do which is maneuver with his Squad and do his best to shoot folks he can identify as enemy.

I don’t know of any real life DM stories either. We use the M16A4 for the course, the students routinely hit targets with at 550 to 600 with ball ammo, it is not extraordinarily difficult for any of them. Some students are better than others, some will get < 5 of 10 at 600, some more, I think the average is about 6 of 10 at 600m. Next course (an MTT) we will be teaching using the M14 at the request of the unit. How the DM is used depends on whether or not the leadership is familiar with the role and ability of the DM.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

My intent for the DM courses I run is to prepare them to fill in Sniper slots and sorry guys but it happens -- a-lot.

While that is not our intent it certainly happens a lot. Units are beginning to send new potential snipers to our class first and then to sniper school, sometimes back to back. We had a kid last class from the GA Guard, this 19 year old kid was a natural, one day towards then end of course during a lull in Practical Exercises, the kid was in the prone at the UKD range, there is a steel silhouette set up at 700M, and this kid was just pegging it, shot after shot, this was under less than ideal conditions, wind, overcast, light rain, sparse fog, M16A4, 855 green tip, unsupported. Anyhow he is going onto sniper school next course. I think our course will definitely improve a Soldiers chance of success at sniper school. It certainly cannot hurt.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

You have a unique opportunity to really become a fine rifleman or pistolero at Little Rock. They have the resources and the guys with the experience that will allow you to move to the 'next level'. 99.99% of us never had that opportunity and if you really enjoy marksmanship -- take advantage of what Little Rock can offer you.

I recognize that, believe me I do. SFC W. has been taking time with me and mentoring me some. I hope to do as well as he has, he has forgotten more about shooting than most will ever know, and has the X wives to prove it. It is a great group of guys and they really know what they are talking about, unfortunately they don’t get asked their opinion when it comes to writing marksmanship and SDM doctrine, as you know things would be different. Of the top marksmen teaching down here, most are not Combat Arms guys, but supply, band, etc., and they can really shoot circles around people. We also have a high power shooter that recently ETS’d from AMU, he told me that our SDM course is much better than what AMU offers, but he is another one that I spend time with, picking his brain and having him watch and coach me.

Feel free to drop in, you will be well received.

[kawika]

There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board? With regards to highpower and bullseye pistol I thought they were extremely good in competitions? While they do train soldiers, there primary focus isn't that. There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.

From what i've seen on deployment, the RA guys always have DM's. The rifles are usually OEF/OIF equipment. Now back in the rear I definately see your point, can't train on a weapon system you dont have.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by kawika

There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board? With regards to highpower and bullseye pistol I thought they were extremely good in competitions? While they do train soldiers, there primary focus isn't that. There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.

From what i've seen on deployment, the RA guys always have DM's. The rifles are usually OEF/OIF equipment. Now back in the rear I definately see your point, can't train on a weapon system you dont have.

Have you worked with AMTU? (I have.) You speak with some sort of AMTU knowledge/experience?

Team Sergeant

[JGarcia]

Originally Posted by kawika

There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board?
There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.

Nobody is "hating" AMU, facts are facts. AMU produces some of the best shooters in the world in the competitions they are interested in.

See "SSG Max Michael - Shooting on the move." http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/s...85cQQt0fFcjTQ_

AMU does have a Short Range Marksmanship course, I suspect they might cover shooting on the move, good luck getting a class date.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by JGarcia

Our course is 15 days, I would be happy to send you any of our course materials, ppt., training schedules, etc., if you will reciprocate? We have a class size in the 15 to 20 something students and typically about the same number of instructors and assistant instructors. Students get a great deal of one on one coaching. We also pair up the students; each pair has a spotting scope with tripod and data books. We really hammer them on the data books, hard. Each shot, and the conditions for each shot must be recorded, sight pictures drawn, etc.,

Our first week is all iron sights. First off is a "show us what you can do zero” and 300 and in KD qualification. Most scores are no where near the required expert score… go figure. Afterwards we have a “get your head screwed on straight” fundamentals class – which attempts to undo what they think they know. That is followed with a how to zero properly class, a zero 101 on the why’s, how’s and what for’s of zeroing. Then we pair them up & issue spotting scopes and ACOG's.

Next day is 25M zero, 300 and in Qual …with very different results. The rest of the week includes KD zero KD Practical Exercises, KD Qual, and many classes. Course mid point is a full day of range E classes and Practical Exercises, then UKD qual iron sights out to 600, then back to KD for ACOG zero, ACOG PE’s and ACOG KD qual, then back to UKD for Practical Exercises, then Range E test and UKD qual out to 600.

That's basically it. There is a great deal of coaching going on and I didn't mention all of the classroom time, which seems more important to the students as the training progresses, they have more questions. We don’t leave the range or classroom for chow, they bring it with them and eat when they can; typically in the pits during lulls moving from one firing line to the next. They get a great deal of trigger time which is closely watched, typically there is an instructor with a spotting scope/tripod watching trace and an A/I watching the body, the muzzle, etc.,

I wanted to use PM, but I figure others may benefit from this inquiry as well.

JGarcia, a buddy of mine is a GA national guard, what is the procedure/form for him to fill to request training there? If necessary, I'll PM you his name, rank, contact info etc.

As he's about to see the elephant sometime this year, I've been attempting to transfer everything I've ever known/studied/trained wrapped in a lot of stress-induced exercise (heavy pt in full kit, sprint-crawl, then engage multiple targets, repeat, etc.). I can see that he would fully benefit from attending your course (and hopefully make me proud by being the top student).

added: apologize to the original poster for full-blown hijack

[JGarcia]

For your buddy I think it might be too late, he may not have enough time, but he can try.

A Soldier in the National Guard needs to go through his chain of command which would notify the training or readiness NCO at his or her (yes, female Soldiers can attend) unit, that person will know how to look up the school on ATRRS and get the ball rolling. Our school code is 1029. These are the class dates https://atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/cours...ARKSMAN&phase=
I don’t know what the procedure is for the active duty side.

[frostfire]

Thank you for the info JGarcia. I'll pass it down to him.

Originally Posted by JGarcia

See "SSG Max Michael - Shooting on the move." http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/s...85cQQt0fFcjTQ_

Since "shooting on the move" is mentioned, IIRC, in one of his newsletters Paul Howe mentioned he never "shot on the move" downrange because one has to slow down enough. This combined with moving closer towards the enemy only increases his/her accuracy. I may be impressionable and I do train shooting on the move, but his argument is plain common sense to me.

Counter argument?

Mods, if this is borderline tactics, please delete.

[kawika]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Have you worked with AMTU? (I have.) You speak with some sort of AMTU knowledge/experience?

Team Sergeant

Nope haven't, thats why I said I thought they were some of the best HP, bullseye shooters out there. I misread his post about AMU not wanting to compete.