Rifle Scope Needed

[longrange1947]

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie .

Rick, I just went through the site and something caught my attention
(copy and paste) horusvision.com/demos.php
It's the one that says Horus Reticle in Action, 4th from the top, Second-Shot-Correction

Can the shooter, using his own rifle scope, accurately pinpoint at which mark his first shot hit the wall to make the proper hold-off for the second shot?
(even with the simulation assumptions that the wind stays the same, crystal clear pic/contrast of target and reticle, and the shooter got a perfectly-still hold)

I'm just a grasshopper and may not fully know what I'm doing, but the muzzle lift (prone using bipod and/or bag) pretty much made me unable to spot my own shot esp. by only looking through the rifle scope. I also recall your points on being careful with making correction based on dirt splash as the rifle scope (and spotting scope) does not offer depth perception.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.

So should I get a Nightforce if I can afford an S&B?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.

Steel on target, hermano.

Great comments.

The Horus reticle is designed, as I understand it, to allow the shooter to use the old tanker gunner trick of adjusting for a "burst on target" with the second round. I would say that is of dubious value to a shooter like RL, and may lead to some bad habits.

I would avoid the cheap scopes for the reasons mentioned.

My personal opinion is that a $3000 optic will not make you a better shooter at this point than a $1200 scope, but it may make you a better shooter than the frustration of a $200 scope. The rifle you are buying is not capable of demonstrating that level of accuracy, though you will get the ability to see through it for a few minutes more during marginal light conditions and a couple of other bells and whistles.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

So should I get a Nightforce if I can afford an S&B?

Should I purchase a Ford Focus when I can afford a BMW 7 Series Sedan? They both do the same thing?

[longrange1947]

RL - Simply put without anything else in the mix, if I can afford the best I buy the best. Why would I spend 1500 now and then go for a better scope in two years and then shell out another 2500? In those two years I will have learned my scope and equipment and would have steel on target.

Can a shooter see his own impact? Yes. Can he adjust from that impact? Yes and No. Unless he has a good mark, the recoil will prevent him from seeing precisely where the bullet hit on the reticle as the reticle will have moved. That is why the videos show the impact on a wall or dirt berm where the mark can be seen. Lets take this to another level. When student observers miss trace and watch dirt explosions they are subject to another miss. The reason is simple, if the target is not next to a dirt berm or a wall the round can and does travel past the target a goodly distance. The wind can and will blow the round around to the other side of the target causing a miss left to appear as a miss right. The original premise was for the observer to use the Horus spotting scope and the observer spot impact and read this to the shooter, however all the lines prevent the observer from seeing trace clearly so if there is no impact then the observer has no idea where the round went and thus no correction. Another pain is when the vegetation is high enough that no dirt explosion is seen. And lastly the Horus requires the shooter to use a computer to get the mil read on targets and wind holds. Oh you can use all the formulas and rules and SWAG one, but you are back to the mil reticle holds then. Bottom line is I would avoid that reticle.

[Soft Target]

Speaking of scopes, I'm still looking for one that doesn't leave a crescent mark above my right eye every time I pull the trigger.

Seriously, Merry Christmas to all. I'll be in wilds of NM (near T-or-C) shooting with the kids. Now that's a Merry Christmas!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind?

I don't know.

How do you plan to shoot it? Offhand, benchrest, etc., etc.

If you determine that you need one, I like the Harris, though I am sure that you will insist on the Parker-Hale.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind?

Yeah, cept in your case it should be a tri-pod.

[mcarey]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind?

I would recommend a harris with cant adjustment, this feature is imperitive to allow rapid leveling of the gun/reticle. http://www.harrisbipods.com/HBRS.html

Shop around and you may be able to get it cheaper.

I would also recommend a good tactical sling - either a Turner in Biothane http://www.turnersling.com/miva/merc...t_Code=NMSRAWS
or Tactical Intervention w/ cuff http://www.tacticalintervention.com/...smilitary.html .

Buld a good foundation and the shot is natural as is the point of aim!

[Sinister]

Good to "See" ya, Mark!

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I like the Harris also. Blitzzz

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Yeah, cept in your case it should be a tri-pod.

Now that is mean!

I agree with the Harris with cant. I find it more steady then the Parker Hale. If you use it be sure and take all the loading off the springs when you shoot.

Also agree with Mark's recommendations on the slings.

Instant trivia, what does MRT stand for on the old military leather slings?

And yes, stay away from them. Too much pain and no gain.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Instant trivia, what does MRT stand for on the old military leather slings?

And yes, stay away from them. Too much pain and no gain.

mildew resistant treated.

Some folks at gunshow would claim MRT stands for military grade and such, claim it's superior than the old GI web sling, then rob you off your hard-earned $$$