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View Poll Results: Hemorrhagic Control Agents?
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Yes - Quickclot
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13 |
48.15% |
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Yes - Traumadex
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7 |
25.93% |
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Yes - Other
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3 |
11.11% |
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No - Bad JuJu
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4 |
14.81% |
02-12-2005, 12:53
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#46
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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a few good points here.....first, tourniquets DO NOT work when there is a bone in the way, it needs circumferential soft tissue and when places above the ankle and around the popliteal fossa, the tibia at the anke and the patella or tibia at the knee will prevent the tourniquet from performing its intended duty.....need to refresh the anatomy and placement of tourniquets with the medics!!
IMHO, a touniquet over gauze at the site of injury 'most likely' would have taken care of this. Yes, quik clot will stop the bleeding and he didn't sustain a burn most likely because the field was very dry...it remains as he describes a LAST DITCH EFFORT/PROCEDURE. That is the most important point
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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02-12-2005, 12:58
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#47
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Agreed sir. Last resort.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-29-2005, 17:37
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#48
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
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Quickclot DCU Battle Pack
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
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BMT (RIP) is offline
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03-29-2005, 19:29
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#49
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Yeah, I have tried to order some of those for the Boyz here. We'll see if we get them.
Do we know that company BMT?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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03-29-2005, 20:41
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#50
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
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Sarnt:
Brad has the QC in stock here at Bragg. I am sure he has them on the site as well.
HTH.
Crip
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."
"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman
"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
Last edited by Surgicalcric; 03-29-2005 at 21:24.
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Surgicalcric is offline
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12-08-2005, 13:34
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#51
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: No. VA, USA
Posts: 1,095
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Is this product similar to TraumaDEX?
http://www.biolife.com
My niece has Glanzmann's Thrombastenia and frequently gets nosebleeds, sometimes severe. My sister is checking with her Pediatric Hematologist, because they've never recommended any kind of HCA, just packing, and recombinant factor VII when she goes to the ER.
It's not battlefield trauma, but I can never get used to how much she bleeds out through her nose, and anything to stop it faster would be great.
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vsvo is offline
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01-06-2006, 09:27
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#52
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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VSVO, yes the products are made by the same company, packaged differently.
on the quik-clot subject (figured out I'm not a fan of its use?)
I couldn't remember where I read this until I came across it again looking for something else.....
Oct 2005, Journal of Trauma, study done by US army institute of surgical research: "Comparison of Hemorrhage Control Agents Applied to Lethal Extremity Arteial Hemorrhages in Swine"
to summarize...
animal model developed that had 100% motality if used standard gauze (army field bandage) application and manual compression.
3 products: hemcon (chitosan dressing), fibrin sealant dressing, and quikclot each applied twice with 3 minute comprssion time. All applied on active bleeding site through a pool of blood (realistic, unlike the quikclot video which has a DRY field to apply through...very UNREALISTIC).
Results: fibrin sealant dressing superior. hemcon showed "some hemostatic benefit. The exothermic reaction of quikclot was significant and resulted in gross and histologic tissue changes of unknown clinical significance...it showed NO hemostatic benefit"
Until another product comes out I believe this thread merits no more time spent discussing Quik clot: it doesn't work unless the field is dry (I haven't seen too many (none) wounds that have an exsanginating injury that are dry...if they were, my technique to stop the bleeding is working so why would I apply quikclot.
Gentlemen of all biases and beliefs....leave quikclot out of the picture....the last ditch effort I mentioned in a previous post means I have tried EVERYTHING else available to me and I have nothing to loose and oh, by the way, we could try quikclot for lack of ANYTHING else to try.
ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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01-06-2006, 09:34
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#53
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 880
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I forgot to mention....you give me 1 week and alot of animals and a cadaver, I can teach the 18D how to control just about every vascular bundle in the body...think back to the vascular injury portrayed in 'Blackhawk Down', if the medic knew how to get into the retroperitoneal space, the iliac artery and vein are right there and can be compressed or clamped....or split the inguinal ligament and clamp there....there are other ways that in the civilian world we would not teach to non-docs, but for you guys I would be willing, as should your medical superiors, teach you these methods...they can and do save lives.
Don't mistake what I'm suggesting as teaching to every 'regular' soldier, this is for the combat medic.
ss
ss
__________________
'Revel in action, translate perceptions into instant judgements, and these into actions that are irrevocable, monumentous and dreadful - all this with lightning speed, in conditions of great stress and in an environment of high tension:what is expected of "us" is the impossible, yet we deliver just that.
(adapted from: Sherwin B. Nuland, MD, surgeon and author: The Wisdom of the Body, 1997 )
Education is the anti-ignorance we all need to better treat our patients. ss, 2008.
The blade is so sharp that the incision is perfect. They don't realize they've been cut until they're out of the fight: A Surgeon Warrior. I use a knife to defend life and to save it. ss (aka traumadoc)
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swatsurgeon is offline
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01-06-2006, 11:14
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#54
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: No. VA, USA
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swatsurgeon
VSVO, yes the products are made by the same company, packaged differently.
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Thanks, Doctor!
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vsvo is offline
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04-22-2006, 07:12
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#55
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SF Candidate
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Eglin Main
Posts: 144
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I know this is a really old thread, but was looking around and came across it.
The new stuff being put out by Eagle First Responder (the new CLS. At least at Campbell) is to tourniquet FIRST for any major hemhorrage i.e. GSW, major avulsion, big lac, amputation, etc. Their thought process being there have been too many fatalities due to blood loss that the benefits of immediate tourniquet outweigh the potential risks. Also, suppossedly, there has been a significant advance in the ability to save the limbs distal to the tourniquet.
Has anyone else seen this put out yet? This seems bassackwards to what I was taught and I had a hard time wrapping my head around it, but they say it works better this way. Also, as far as the CLS stuff they're putting out, they're shying away from having CLS guys start IV's in the field. The most they want them to do is start the port but don't push any fluids till they've been evaluated by a medic.
Any thoughts?
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SRT31B is offline
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04-22-2006, 07:48
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#56
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wherever my ruck finds itself
Posts: 2,972
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Wow, talk about a necro post...
This past week was spent discussing hemorrhage control here in class. The current line of thinking here in the SOCM/18-D/IDC world is place a tourniquet on the guy (provided the bleeding is bad enough ie: large veins or arteries...) til the wound can be bandaged and dressed. Then remove the tourney slowly and examine the wound/dressing for signs of bleeding. Easier to see what you are working with when you dont have squrters hitting you in the face. Its also easier to place the tourney on a guy under fire than bandage and dress a serious wound.
In the next few weeks we will be seeing all the HCA's in use. I will get back to this thread after I watch a few of them at work.
Crip
__________________
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."
"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me" -Batman
"There are no obstacles, only opportunities for excellence."- NousDefionsDoc
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Surgicalcric is offline
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04-22-2006, 12:28
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#57
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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My how things change.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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04-22-2006, 12:46
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#58
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,830
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Surgicalcric
In the next few weeks we will be seeing all the HCA's in use. I will get back to this thread after I watch a few of them at work.
Crip
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Make the wound as dry as possible before using them.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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04-22-2006, 15:13
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#59
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 864
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HCAs
We had an updated combat first aid class prior to my rotation in the desert. We were issued will all sorts of new gear, like the quikclot, airways and one handed tourney's (which are also in our survival vests now).
The medic giving the class had told us about keeping the area dry before using the quikcot to prevent burning. I asked about traumadex, and she said she'd read about it, but hadn't used it yet.
The AF is still teaching us to use the tourney as a last resort when all else fails.
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Monsoon65 is offline
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04-22-2006, 15:52
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#60
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Keeping the "area dry before applying" sounds a lot like "do a tactical reload during a lull in the fight". I've never seen either a dry field or this lull of which they speak - at least not in cqb. 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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