Tactics gone wrong - Page 4

**The Reaper** · 10-06-2006, 13:39

It only takes a couple per school.

Find the retired military, former cops, and CCW licensees who are teaching, give those who are willing to particvipate and if neccessary take lives proper training, rules and procedures to follow, annual evals, and they should be indistinguishable any normal day as background noise.

As a parent of kids here in the US public school system, I would rather have a teacher armed and trained that to have the killer walking around, kicking doors and killing kids at will till the SWAT team arrives, suits up, gets an intel dump, makes a plan, moves into position, stacks up, and breaches. IIRC, most bad guys run out of ammo or vicitms (or kill themselves) before the cops get there and take them out.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Smokin Joe · 10-06-2006, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Do any of you advocating arming this bunch actually know a teacher?

I'm not talking about PTA or parent's night.

First of all they won't carry, they are the biggest libs on the planet. Second of all, most of them can't get 20 6th graders on a school bus without some type of drama.

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL I WOULD ARM THOSE PEOPLE! I don't even want pilots armed. I would rather arm the kids than 99.9% of the teachers I know.

NDD,

My father was a teacher/ high school counsler for 20 years. He spent 3 years in SEA with Air America. He can still shoot pretty well even though he hasn't seriously shot in 30+ years. If he still worked in education he would carry and have no qualms about smoking some shitbag who came to the school to do bad things.

But he's the exception to your point, kinda like my old math teacher who was 5th SF in Vietnam.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 10-06-2006, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Do any of you advocating arming this bunch actually know a teacher?

I'm not talking about PTA or parent's night.

First of all they won't carry, they are the biggest libs on the planet. Second of all, most of them can't get 20 6th graders on a school bus without some type of drama.

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL I WOULD ARM THOSE PEOPLE! I don't even want pilots armed. I would rather arm the kids than 99.9% of the teachers I know.

I'm with you on this completely.

Logan · 10-06-2006, 13:58

With all due respect to Doc...Yes I do know a lot of teachers. Many of which I would put up against you in any gun on gun match you want to devise.
A couple of local middle school teachers are Group wives and they train a lot. I know for a fact that some have chosen to risk the wrath of folks who think that only THEY are one of the chosen few who can shoot and handle stressful situations. Some of these teachers have the permitted gun in the trunk of the car. Perhaps they can get to it just like the Assistant Principle in Mississippi and save a few lives. They could get fired if found out but they are willing to take the risk.
I have put on private classes for teachers at private schools who are very aware of the amount of carnage that can take place with the current response time of police. We spent many hours working of drawing from a seated position with the gun in a desk drawer. Guess where their gun is....Could it possibly be in a lock drawer in a class room.
Your very arrogant position of not wanting teachers and pilots armed is the very thing the liberal anti gun crowd want ignorant people to buy. That only the uniformed, badge carry folks deserve to carry a gun. NOT SO. To many police think “I’ve got mine so why do they need theirs” (guns that is)
Just because you have more training (Perhaps!) than a pilot or teacher who attends a course focusing on specific handgun task does not mean they cannot perform the task needed in and emergency situation. They are not being called upon to call for fire using a 9 lines or give a brief back to the commander or patrol covertly thru enemy territory. Don't confuse the missions.
Obviously those that have a problem with using deadly force or those who are not up to par should not carry. But there are many who are trained, capable and ready to live up to their responsibility as a citizen and a leader.
I have found in fact that many teachers are not liberal. At least not the many dozens and dozens I have had in training or just gone shooting with.
And as for Airline pilots. I am very familiar with the training requirement they endure before being allowed to store a gun in the cockpit and it is not a simple course. I fly armed occasionally for the local Sheriff Department and am aware of the safety procedures in place. Any pilot who does not fly armed in today’s world is risking his crew and passengers by ignoring a critical tool in the war on terrorism. There is a waiting list of commercial pilots wanting to get certified to go armed. I hope they all do.
Don’t be a sheep in wolf’s clothing. Don’t generalize or stereotype people by supporting restrictive gun laws. Let’s focus on getting them trained and allow qualified individuals to be on the streets in the schools and planes to counter these morons attacking us.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 10-06-2006, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

With all due respect to Doc...Yes I do know a lot of teachers.
.

Well this started off pretty good, but I lost the "due respect" part when the words "arrogant" and "wolf in sheeps clothing" came out.

I understand your point and can accept it given the correct circumstances and audience, but I also know that what you are saying has a lot to do about where you are and the population of teachers that you have trained and the focus of those who are willing to confront these problems. That is certainly different than up here and in many other places and schools with which I have had experiences as a parent. Yes I also know teachers some good, some conservative and whole bunch that are liberal but then I am not conducting a survey here just expressing my limited experience with those with whom I have had interactions over the years. My wife was one and my daughter is currently one. My daughter is a different case, however, because if she was a guy she would need a wheelbarrow in which to carry her testicals. She would shoot and I have trained her to do so.

**The Reaper** · 10-06-2006, 14:54

First off, this is an academic argument, since none of us are likely to pass legislation or enforce it. No need for hostility or namecalling, we just have different opinions.

Having said that, I am failing to understand how allowing those who wish to participate after undergoing the requisite training and background checks further endangers our students.

Particularly since the only thing stopping an armed individual from walking into a classroom in my kids' school and killing every child in the room is the ability to pull open the outer door and walk into a classroom with 30 rounds and a functioning firearm. Or machete, or baseball bat, or suicide bomb belt, or a five gallon can of gas and a BIC.

I would put my skills, or those of a competently trained teacher up against almost all potential bad guys. In fact, the program could easily require more training and rounds fired than many LE certification programs.

I have kids in the public school system, understand the risks versus possible benefits, have made my risk assessment, and am willing to take it, provided that the certification, rules, and training is adequate.

So far, I am not hearing logical arguments against it, including those offered by Rosie O'Donnell.

These same concerns were used against CCW legislation and arming pilots, which last time I checked, have not been a source of problems.

The Safer Schools Legislation has, if anything, made this sort of attack easier as lawful firearms owners are discouraged from having their weapons handy, and are in fact, criminalized.

If there is an SRO, and he fails, or is somewhere else at that moment, there is no further line of defense. You simply wait for the assassin to come for you. And no praying out loud either. Is that the option you want for your kids?

TR

stakk4 · 10-06-2006, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by incommin

Too many sheep. Too many wolves. Too few sheep dogs!

Jim

Outstanding post.

I actually would be for teachers carrying, provided they pass training and qualify. I would also say that I would want it to be a harder qualification than most, considering the environment. Heck, maybe we could send them to CLS class annually too.

That being said, I realize it will probably never happen. If anything went wrong, the lawsuits that fly would probably outnumber the bullets that fly by 20 to 1.

S

112thSOLCA · 10-06-2006, 15:51

I think pilots and teachers are two completely different discussions.
Airline pilots are dealing with trained terrorists. Teachers are dealing with kids that are psychotic, stoned or otherwise emotionally unstable

Pilots have a security system in place that screens out the wackos. Pilots can keep their weapons in a semi-secure environment and access them easily when needed (passengers don’t mingle in the cockpit). Furthermore, pilots are generally intelligent, stable individuals who are use to intense training and following proper safety procedures. Many are former military men and women.

On the other hand….
Teachers are generally younger; less trained, and of a non-confrontational mind set (i.e. LIBERAL). They have no way to buffer themselves from the kids. In other words the guns and kids are in the same proximity all day. I think arming teachers would increase school shootings ten fold. I believe we would regularly have kids taking the teachers weapons in a fit of rage or as a planned attack.

I have met numerous teachers in the last 20 years both as a parent and as a non-teaching facility member (coach) at the local high school. The vast majority I would not trust with a firearm. Especially in a crisis situation!

Yes there are always exceptions. Yes, there are hundreds or thousands of teachers who could handle weapons in a crisis. However, I believe they are in the extreme minority in the public school system.

IMHO, NDD is much more right than wrong.

**Peregrino** · 10-06-2006, 15:57

Has anybody heard of any RECENT terrorist attacks in Israeli schools?

Peregrino

112thSOLCA · 10-06-2006, 16:04

One more thing.....
If we are talking about intensive training and high standards for teachers than make that training related to academics! School shootings are tragic and get lots of ink but the crisis in America is education. I have been shocked time and time again when hiring young graduates to find they can’t do simple math or write a grammatically correct sentence.
Let’s figure out how to provide adequate security in schools but let’s not look to the educators to provide it.

Okay... time to step down off my soapbox.

stakk4 · 10-06-2006, 16:10

March, 2002 – Five students were shot to death and twenty - three other people wounded in an attack by Palestinian terrorists on a pre-military high school in Atzmona , Israel .

Source: schoolterrorism.com

Most recent I've found. That site has an interesting timeline of school terrorist events.

stakk4 · 10-06-2006, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by 112thSOLCA

One more thing.....
If we are talking about intensive training and high standards for teachers than make that training related to academics! School shootings are tragic and get lots of ink but the crisis in America is education. I have been shocked time and time again when hiring young graduates to find they can’t do simple math or write a grammatically correct sentence.
Let’s figure out how to provide adequate security in schools but let’s not look to the educators to provide it.

Okay... time to step down off my soapbox.

I definitely must agree. I've seen graduates that can't seem to tell the difference between there, their, and they're.

Now let me get down off your soapbox.

But we must make sure they have a safe place to learn. This certainly isn't the only option. How else would you improve security?

S

Logan · 10-06-2006, 16:36

The point is being missed by a lot of these comments. It does not matter if kids are not educated to the level you believe in. It does not matter if teachers are liberal or not. The point was made in the quote in the paper concerning the school staff member who retrieved his gun from his car and stopped the shooting in Mississippi.
It does not take weeks of training to become proficient with a handgun once you remove much of the tactics, room clearing etc out of the program and focused on the need at hand. Also the common threat is adults attacking schools or older teenagers who could be classified as adults. It would only take one armed teacher, janitor, principle or office staff with the fundamental basic skills to stop such an attack. There is no need for advanced L.E. tactics just the basic self defense pistol skills needed to stay alive. They would not be making arrest on fighting to stay alive or keep kids alive. These predators are targeting known unarmed victims. An armed individual in the school would change the dynamics greatly. Many if not most of the teachers and staff could be trained. Of course no one would be forced or required to but the laws can easily be adjusted to allow legally armed citizens to have a secured gun on campus still allowing for quick access.
The backward logic currently used bans a tool (firearms) from a specific location (school grounds) because criminals who don't follow the law anyway abuse the tool. This stops safe, trained and legal citizens from being able to defend themselves and others. There would absolutely be no increased danger to children if we allowed legally armed citizens to carry in school. But any of the last 3 events where kids were shot could have been stopped if ..Say the janitor had a firearm or the principle was armed.
Teachers already have a responsibility for the security of our kids and of themselves. We just don't let them have the tools for an extreme reaction to an extreme event.

Logan · 10-06-2006, 16:47

We can make a difference folks.
I will be meeting with several representative from firearm training facilities both civilian and L.E. and we will be sitting down with a state representative to propose adjustments to our states Handgun Permit laws to allow qualified people to go armed on school grounds. We did it before and got the law change to allow permitted guns in places that sale alcohol. It took two years but the law got changed because we had the knowledge and positive attitude and persistence to convince the law makers to adjust the law.
Don’t just bitch about it on this forum. If you really have strong feeling about this issue call your law makers and remind them who they work for. I try to help out during their campaigning. I donate money to their campaigns, I visit the capital and observe them at work and I step in when there is something I am knowledgeable about and want to change.
We can make a difference. Its not easy but it can be done

mugwump · 10-06-2006, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Do any of you advocating arming this bunch actually know a teacher?

I'm not talking about PTA or parent's night.

First of all they won't carry, they are the biggest libs on the planet. Second of all, most of them can't get 20 6th graders on a school bus without some type of drama.

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL I WOULD ARM THOSE PEOPLE! I don't even want pilots armed. I would rather arm the kids than 99.9% of the teachers I know.

I was a high school teacher for four years right after I got out of college - Elgin High Shool 1977-81, biology and physics. Other teachers in my department were: Marine Viet Nam combat vet, Navy vet (fueled jets on a carrier), Army vet (Korea, Germany), a take-no-crap young hottie from a holler in Kentucky, a full-blown hippie (best friend of the VN vet), and a left-wing zealot who'd give you the shirt off his back. The first four and I grew up with guns in our hands. The Navy vet was mean as a snake, but if he snapped he'd prefer to beat you to death with his hands.

I hunt pheasants with two local teachers, one of whom is a also a decent IDPA shooter.