swim class in phase II

[doc22584]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Consider this.

The team can only move as fast as the slowest guy. They can only ruck at the pace of the last man. If required to run, they can only beat feet at the pace of the slowest runner. When swimming, while you can, as noted, be towed along on a Budweiser line, who wants to be the sea anchor holding the team back? How would you feel if you failed in your mission, or lost teammates because you couldn't keep up? In case you missed it, this ain't tiddleywinks we are playing, the bullets are real in this game.

While we all have our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot all be the best on the team at everything. At the same time, you do not want to be the worst on the team at anything. I am not saying that we should strive for mediocrity, but if you are not the slowest member, you are probably not slowing the team down and are able to help the ones who are. Anything that you are the worst at, you should be working on it to improve, constantly. Complacency will get you killed.

When I first arrived on an ODA, the Team Sergeant told me that Tuesdays were swim days, meet at Lee Pool when it opened at 0600. Now I am not a strong swimmer, I prefer to do most of my swimming with a nice cold drink waiting poolside. I was worried about my ability to keep up. We got into the pool to do 1500 meters and I soon noticed that my teammates were finishing up and leaving well before I was done. When I got out of the pool, the Team Sergeant was the only one not yet done and still had a long way to go to finish, but he was doing his best. I expected that he would soon decide that we could find something else to do on Tuesday mornings, but he kept insisting that we swim on Tuesdays, even though we were a HALO team. He never quit working on it, frequently on his own time, because he considered himself to be in need of improvement. He never let the fact that it was very obvious that he was the slowest deter him from practicing regularly. He made all of us better, because he was more concerned for the team than he was for his personal comfort or avoiding possible embarrassment. By the time he left, the team had shaved several minutes off of our mile swim times, despite the fact that it was not our primary infil method. The entire team (including the TS) could finish the swim in about the same amount of time that it took for the average guy when we started going to the pool. And the TS taught me a valuable lesson.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be about you, if it is, there is a problem. It is about the team and how you can make it better. Think about it.

TR

I totally understand what your saying about it being about the team sir. I dont want to be the slow guy holding everybody back. Ive been practicing and i will continue to practice until i'm extremely proficient, and even then ill continue to practice

[deanwells]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Consider this.

The team can only move as fast as the slowest guy. They can only ruck at the pace of the last man. If required to run, they can only beat feet at the pace of the slowest runner. When swimming, while you can, as noted, be towed along on a Budweiser line, who wants to be the sea anchor holding the team back? How would you feel if you failed in your mission, or lost teammates because you couldn't keep up? In case you missed it, this ain't tiddleywinks we are playing, the bullets are real in this game.

While we all have our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot all be the best on the team at everything. At the same time, you do not want to be the worst on the team at anything. I am not saying that we should strive for mediocrity, but if you are not the slowest member, you are probably not slowing the team down and are able to help the ones who are. Anything that you are the worst at, you should be working on it to improve, constantly. Complacency will get you killed.

When I first arrived on an ODA, the Team Sergeant told me that Tuesdays were swim days, meet at Lee Pool when it opened at 0600. Now I am not a strong swimmer, I prefer to do most of my swimming with a nice cold drink waiting poolside. I was worried about my ability to keep up. We got into the pool to do 1500 meters and I soon noticed that my teammates were finishing up and leaving well before I was done. When I got out of the pool, the Team Sergeant was the only one not yet done and still had a long way to go to finish, but he was doing his best. I expected that he would soon decide that we could find something else to do on Tuesday mornings, but he kept insisting that we swim on Tuesdays, even though we were a HALO team. He never quit working on it, frequently on his own time, because he considered himself to be in need of improvement. He never let the fact that it was very obvious that he was the slowest deter him from practicing regularly. He made all of us better, because he was more concerned for the team than he was for his personal comfort or avoiding possible embarrassment. By the time he left, the team had shaved several minutes off of our mile swim times, despite the fact that it was not our primary infil method. The entire team (including the TS) could finish the swim in about the same amount of time that it took for the average guy when we started going to the pool. And the TS taught me a valuable lesson.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be about you, if it is, there is a problem. It is about the team and how you can make it better. Think about it.

TR

Roger that. Thanks for putting this out there.

DOL

[Slantwire]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

I would also suggest to any of you folks headed to SF........ take a SCUBA course.............

I've taken the conservative approach and NOT gone diving recently - don't want to fall on the wrong side of the statistics and get bent before attempting the pipeline. My gear is in the attic and it bugs me that I don't get to play with it.

Oh well, I guess I just gotta go PT more on the surface. I have no doubt that cadre all along the road will find interesting things for me to do.

[TAN2GREEN]

Good afternoon Gentlemen,
I had a question concerning the Q Course. During the time of the Course do they conduct promotion boards in between phases? Basically, can you be promoted during the course? Thank you all for the time,
Respectfully

TAN

[x SF med]

T2G-
I think that's covered elsewhere, Use the search button. Even if it's not, this thread is not an appropriate place to ask. How does promotion have anything to do with swimming and swim levels. Poor SA, -10. Drop and push, and when your arms fall off, then roll over and do flutterkicks until you move across the room.

[TAN2GREEN]

Gents,
Apologize for posting the wrong area, I'm kinda new. I appreciate the heads up.
T2G

[kachingchingpow]

Doc, I'm sure you're getting your mind right by now, but I thought I would offer up one more suggestion. Get comfortable swimming, then find a YMCA with a well run basic lifesaving course. Make sure you check out the program first, because they're all run a little differently. Some are pretty lame on the physical conditioning side. The course that I took prior to enlisting was run by a retired Navy spec ops guy (I never had the nads to ask what he did or was assigned to, he would've made me tread water for 30 minutes just for looking at him). We swam our tails off. They're typically 8week classes 3 nights/week for 2 hrs. Each of our classes started by arriving early and treading water... started with 10 minutes, by the 6th week rolled around we had to tread for 30. We would then swim every conceavable lifesaving stroke up and down each lane of the 12 lane olympic sized pool, before being "taught" anything. Besides the conditioning, you're going to get the basic stuff you need to help someone, or even yourself if the situation arises. You'll also get to do some survival swimming with clothes and shoes on. Personally, I did it so that I could lifeguard (and reap all of the perceived benefits ), but later realized that the course very much prepared me for any swimming I ever did while I was in.

[x SF med]

KCCP-
Basic lifesaving (level 1 lifeguard, pool lifeguard) requires the applicant to be able to swim 500m in a given time period, something like 12-15 minutes, if I rermember correctly ( I did level 1, level 2, and level 3-ocean, plus was a competitive swimmer prior to enlisting) - if a person is a weak swimmer, they just wasted the course fee by failing the initial test.

We are trying to get these guys ready to get ready - the opportunity to fail is already inherent in SFAS and the Q - why compound it by having them waste money.

Guys, find a buddy who is a strong swimmer, and have him work with you, it's a much better idea than taking a lifesaving course that alread yassumes you are a very strong swimmer.

Now back to you KCCP -
1. no SA -10
2. no idea what you are talking about -15
3. giving advice that should come from BTDT / QPs -20

So until you have completed the Q, or at least made it through most of the Q - shut the hell up about the training, ok? Sorry you got MD'd 4 months in to the Q, but you never got qual'd. The people giving advice here all have qualified Team time, and know what it's like to have buddies who are weak swimmers initially, and most of us have helped buddies, Teammates get ready for SF MarOps - you have not.

you owe 5,000 pushups and 23,000 flutter kicks - get started.

[cordobian]

Originally Posted by 12B4S

deanwells, (and the rest of you folks.)

....What is taught in these classes? How to do the perfect Australian crawl? The perfect breast stroke? I was on the HS and college swim team. I never used that stuff while I was in SF or when I worked as a commercial diver. .........
I would also suggest to any of you folks headed to SF........ take a SCUBA course.............

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

[82ndtrooper]

I remember being with the 82nd ABN and witnessing some guy's with the SF command or SFAS preps in the pool at the gym at Ardennes road. With fins mask and snorkel, and weight belts they were practically drowning those guy's in the pool !!!

I remember someone saying they were about to go the CDQC at Key West, Florida.



Not something I'd want to have experienced during my active duty.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by cordobian

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

"Long Distances" means many things to different people. If you are talking something in the range of swim tests with equipment then it is something of a cross between a breast stroke and the side stroke. Pulling/pushing down with the front arm, followed by a sideways frogish kick with the legs. The "off" arm is holding the weapon or doing a small push stroke between the other two.

If you are doing the swim test in a regular pool and are tall you'll need to be able to dog paddle in the shallow end. TACs love to spot that bottom toe "helping" with a little push now and then off the bottom of the pool.

Again "Practice, Pratice and then more Practice".

Pete

Who thought any pool time was relaxing.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by cordobian

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

Seconding the SGM, What do you consider long distance? A 500m river crossing? A 5Km surface swim or longer? You adapt to the mission - if it's a MarOPs infil - well, fin up and you better not have slacked on your flutterkicks, and have done some deep water ruck pulling. If it's a river, well, your stuff better be packed tight and you better know how to swim with your stuff on - I'd lose ballistic vests, unless you are a monster swimmer, or it's a shallow cross.

Also- I have yet to see anybody swim in full (current) battle-rattle - can you say blub,blub,blub? Unless of course you are wearing 2 inflated BCs...

[cordobian]

Originally Posted by x SF med

Seconding the SGM, What do you consider long distance? A 500m river crossing? A 5Km surface swim or longer?.....

"At Amara, the Tigris is only 600 feet wide with a depth ranging from a normal 6½ feet to 13 feet when flooding." (From
http://baghdadtreasure.blogspot.com/...f-baghdad.html) I realize that it is likely that few servicemembers will intentionally try to cross rivers or canals in Iraq, but it would be nice to know to how to survive such distances in order to prevent the death of future servicemen.

Originally Posted by x SF med

....If it's a river, well, your stuff better be packed tight and you better know how to swim with your stuff on - I'd lose ballistic vests, unless you are a monster swimmer, or it's a shallow cross.

Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/article...051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."

Originally Posted by x SF med

Also- I have yet to see anybody swim in full (current) battle-rattle - can you say blub,blub,blub? Unless of course you are wearing 2 inflated BCs...

To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?

Thanks for your time,

Robert

[Pete]

Originally Posted by cordobian

...Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/article...051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."



To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?

Yes, body armor will float. I proved that in a pool to my B team Medic who was a weak swimmer. Will it float with plates and "your" full combat load and weapon while doing a river crossing at night? Don't know. Try it and get back to us.

Heavy as a rucksack is, it is hard to sink quickly. The darn thing floats so high it is a bit hard to hang onto without twisting your neck all out of joint. A little work with waterproof bags and plastic bags and you can go a long ways with one of them. SCUBA teams had a hard time getting rucks to sink for subsurface swims. That critter is heavy and it's a bear to pick up and move off the beach.

If you drop your gear you have no mission.

Pete

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by cordobian

Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/article...051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."

The soft Kevlar armor will float.

Once you add the plates, it will not, nor will anyone wearing it.

Add another 30 pounds of weapons and ammo (minimum) and you are definitely a sinker.

Originally Posted by cordobian

To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?

Just before you go under for the last time. If you do not have to be resuscitated, you probably dumped it too soon.

TR