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Old 07-20-2005, 13:49   #451
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Originally Posted by BMT
I read that earlier today and laughed.

Someone should inform this future bullet trap that the islamic jihad has already been at war with the western world for quite a few centuries. I’m betting on at least fifty more years of dip-shits blowing themselves up for allah.
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Old 07-20-2005, 13:56   #452
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Father of 9/11 hijacker warns of 50 year war.

If this has already been posted, I apologize, otherwise...


Father of 9/11 hijacker warns of 50-year war
11:56am 20th July 2005

The father of one of the September 11 hijackers said today he had no sorrow for
what had happened in London and claimed more terrorist attacks would follow.

Egyptian Mohamed el-Amir, whose son Mohamed Atta commandeered the first plane
that crashed into the World Trade Centre in New York, said there was a double
standard in the way the world viewed the victims in London and victims in the
Islamic world.

El-Amir said the attacks in the US and the July 7 attacks in Britain were the
beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many
more fighters like his son.

Speaking to a CNN producer in his apartment in the upper-middle-class Cairo
suburb of Giza, he declared that terror cells around the world were a "nuclear
bomb that has now been activated and is ticking".

Cursing in Arabic, el-Amir also denounced Arab leaders and Muslims who condemned
the London attacks as being traitors and non-Muslims.

He passionately vowed that he would do anything within his power to encourage
more attacks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...?in_article_id
=356444&in_page_id=1811
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Old 07-20-2005, 14:46   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET
Cursing in Arabic, el-Amir also denounced Arab leaders and Muslims who condemned
the London attacks as being traitors and non-Muslims.
What would that sound like, "Your wife has the face of a camel"? Here is a proponent that wants to make it a target rich environment where all Muslims are to rise up and strike. Evidently Mustaffa the Mouth doesn't want us to be able to tell the forest from the trees. So be it. I love a target rich environment.

Jack Moroney-breaking out the chain saw and willing to limit the harvest in culling the diseased trees but just as willing to clear cut the forest to remove the threat of a wildfire from my doorstep.
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Old 07-20-2005, 14:57   #454
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Originally Posted by Jack Moroney
Jack Moroney-breaking out the chain saw and willing to limit the harvest in culling the diseased trees but just as willing to clear cut the forest to remove the threat of a wildfire from my doorstep.
A guy in my last class drew a hilarious short cartoon of a cane carrying old lady who bumps her foot into a tree, next image has her cussing and giving the tree the finger, then coming back with a ski mask and a big ass chainsaw.

Reminded me...

PS. No, I'm not calling you an old lady!
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Old 07-20-2005, 18:09   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET
El-Amir said the attacks in the US and the July 7 attacks in Britain were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son.
hell, in 50 years, we can kill them all if we keep our head in the game...
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Old 07-23-2005, 01:33   #456
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islam is at war with us. they don't like us,
never will, and will always try to kill us. they
can't be negotiated with. you know, that whole
"death to the infidels" thing???

it's a belief in islam that if muslims must negotiate, they will
do so only as a tactical advantage to get their enemies
to drop their guard. then, it's back to jihad until they are
in control again.

they are not nice people in general, have zero tolerance for different
cultures or belief systems, and use extreme violence to
"solve" their problems.

people who have nothing to lose and refuse to think for themselves
are the most dangerous enemy to face. they are "sheep," but very
dangerous sheep. bahahahahaha.

i'd say any "good" muslim is only one hate-filled speech away
from strapping on a vest filled with 30 lbs of C4 and making
the daily news.

oh well, lock and load another 30rd magazine...
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Old 07-23-2005, 02:22   #457
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Is Islam to blame?
Despite claims of moderate Muslims, a literal reading of the Koran offers cover for acts of terrorism.

By Irshad Manji, Irshad Manji is the author of "The Trouble with Islam Today" (St. Martin's Press, 2005).

Quote:
Which is why I don't understand how moderate Muslim leaders can reject, flat-out, the notion that religion may also play a part in these bombings. What makes them so sure that Islam is an innocent bystander?

What makes them sound so sure is literalism. That's the trouble with Islam today. We Muslims, including moderates living here in the West, are routinely raised to believe that the Koran is the final and therefore perfect manifesto of God's will, untouched and immutable.

This is a supremacy complex. It's dangerous because it inhibits moderates from asking hard questions about what happens when faith becomes dogma. To avoid the discomfort, we sanitize.
Is Islam to Blame?
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:28   #458
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You could probably find the same in the Bible.
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Old 07-23-2005, 08:19   #459
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Originally Posted by Huey14
You could probably find the same in the Bible.
Yeah, but we grew out of that forced conversion or death by torture thing about 500 years ago.

The Moslems have not yet experienced a significant reformation of their religion.

TR
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Old 07-23-2005, 08:40   #460
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When was the reformation for Christians?

I'm playing Devil's Advocate, BTW.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:17   #461
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Martin Luther posted his theses in 1517...John Calvin and John Knox were on the scene later in that century..
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:23   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETCORD
islam is at war with us. they don't like us,
never will, and will always try to kill us. they
can't be negotiated with. you know, that whole
"death to the infidels" thing???

it's a belief in islam that if muslims must negotiate, they will
do so only as a tactical advantage to get their enemies
to drop their guard. then, it's back to jihad until they are
in control again.

they are not nice people in general, have zero tolerance for different
cultures or belief systems, and use extreme violence to
"solve" their problems.

people who have nothing to lose and refuse to think for themselves
are the most dangerous enemy to face. they are "sheep," but very
dangerous sheep. bahahahahaha.

i'd say any "good" muslim is only one hate-filled speech away
from strapping on a vest filled with 30 lbs of C4 and making
the daily news.

oh well, lock and load another 30rd magazine...
Detcord,

Use capitol letters, especially if you wish to engage the Quiet Professionals in conversation. We will not allow children or the che tee shirt wearing MTV crowd to take over this website.

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Old 07-23-2005, 09:43   #463
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Yeah, but we grew out of that forced conversion or death by torture thing about 500 years ago.

The Moslems have not yet experienced a significant reformation of their religion.

TR
There is a pretty good argument to be made that Islam is undergoing a pretty significant reformation right now. I think you have already made that point, TR.

So, let's take a step back and time and consider if we had been around during that period of the 16th to 18th centuries, when Europe was at war between Protestant and Catholic....

If we were persecuted and attacked, tortured and killed... by the Holy Roman Church....

Should we also hate the followers of Martin Luther? Of Calvin? Would we consider ourselves at war with them?

After all, they all read the same book (although they interpret it significantly differently). They all believe in the same God. And they are all Christians...

Remember that it took the Catholic Church around 600 years to apologize for the inquisition. I find it hard to condemn Islam as a whole when the Roman Catholic Church has so much to answer for, and yet I don't expect anyone (and would consider anyone who did foolish) to condemn all Catholics for the actions of a few in the name of that faith.

I also find it hard to claim we are at war with Islam when Muslim Soldiers fight in the GWOT on our side.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:54   #464
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Inpressive and disconcerting numbers, lets just tolerate islam until it buries the western world.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King
(Filed: 23/07/2005)

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.


Click to enlarge
The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous".

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

The proportion of men who say they feel no loyalty to Britain is more than three times the proportion of women saying the same.

Equally remarkable are YouGov's findings concerning many Muslims' attitudes towards Western society and culture.

YouGov asked respondents how they feel about Western society and how, if at all, they feel Muslims should adapt to it. A majority, 56 per cent, believe "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end".

However, nearly a third of British Muslims, 32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Yet again, far more men than women and far more young people than their elders evince this kind of hostility towards the world around them. In addition, tens of thousands of Muslims view the whole of Britain's political establishment with suspicion.

More than half of those interviewed, 52 per cent, believe "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims".

Almost as many, 50 per cent, reckon the main party leaders are not being sincere when they say they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities.

Despite Tony Blair's well-publicised efforts to reach out to Muslims, fewer than half of those interviewed, 42 per cent, approve of the way he has handled Britain's response to the July 7 events.

Many British Muslims are probably reluctant to give Mr Blair credit for anything at all following his complicity with America, as they see it, in launching the invasion of Iraq. Just more than half, 52 per cent, are impressed by the performance since the bombings of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Some Muslims' discontent with Britain clearly extends to discontent with the existing moderate and pro-British Muslim leadership.


A cloud of suspicion also hangs over Britain's judicial system.

YouGov asked its Muslim respondents whether or not they thought anyone charged and taken to court in connection with the July 7 attacks would receive a fair trial. Only 37 per cent said yes. The rest reckon he or she would not or were doubtful that they would.

Despite these widespread doubts, a large majority of Britain's Muslims clearly believe the time has come when Muslims must shoulder their share of the responsibility for preventing and punishing terrorist crimes such as those in London.

As the figures in the chart show, roughly a third of Muslims reckon they should assume "a great deal" of the responsibility and another third reckon they should assume at least "some" of it.

Even more impressive in some ways is the fact that large numbers now say they are prepared to put their mouth where their feelings are.

As the figures in the chart show, almost three quarters of British Mulsims, 73 per cent, say they would inform the police if they believed that someone they knew or knew of might be planning a terrorist attack.

Nearly half, 47 per cent, say they would also go to the police if they believed an imam or other religious person was trying to radicalise young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West.

Not only that but 70 per cent of Muslims reckon they have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious".

Taken as a whole, the findings of YouGov's survey suggest that, although large numbers of British Muslims dislike British society and in some cases may be tempted to attack it, the great majority are loyal and law-abiding and are unlikely to provide the radicals with moral support, let alone safe havens.

YouGov interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online between July 15 and yesterday. The data were weighted to reflect the composition of Britain's Muslim population by gender, age and country of birth.

YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.


Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University.
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Old 07-23-2005, 12:29   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
There is a pretty good argument to be made that Islam is undergoing a pretty significant reformation right now. I think you have already made that point, TR.

So, let's take a step back and time and consider if we had been around during that period of the 16th to 18th centuries, when Europe was at war between Protestant and Catholic....

If we were persecuted and attacked, tortured and killed... by the Holy Roman Church....

Should we also hate the followers of Martin Luther? Of Calvin? Would we consider ourselves at war with them?

After all, they all read the same book (although they interpret it significantly differently). They all believe in the same God. And they are all Christians...

Remember that it took the Catholic Church around 600 years to apologize for the inquisition. I find it hard to condemn Islam as a whole when the Roman Catholic Church has so much to answer for, and yet I don't expect anyone (and would consider anyone who did foolish) to condemn all Catholics for the actions of a few in the name of that faith.

I also find it hard to claim we are at war with Islam when Muslim Soldiers fight in the GWOT on our side.
Do you really want to open this discussion up all over again?

I thought that we had agreed to disagree on this matter.

If we are going to start this up for another round, I need to clear my calendar and put on a pot of coffee.

We no longer live in the 15th Century. It appears that many followers of Islam do. If only one in four are hostile, how many civilian casualties do you view as acceptable losses? If they get nukes (and it is just a matter of time), how many burned American cities full of non-combatants will it take to convince you in Thailand that we are at war?

You are either with us, or against us. If large groups of Muslims want to operate in an Old Testament environment, maybe we should too.

Is there a New Testament with the promise of peace, love, and salvation in their future? If so, I am not seeing it in their actions today.

Any Catholics who participated in those actions you referenced should have been prosecuted and excommunicated. I refuse to tacitly condone Islamofascism and terrorism because others in our past have also done wrong. Is the fact that we made mistakes in the past the basis for allowing it to happen to us again today?

Those in our society today who fail to recognize this threat are sheep and will likely die like sheep, after preventing the sheepdogs from doing their duty when it was doable.

TR
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