College After SOF: A Rant

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

First you must think I hate everything about Europe. In fact that is not the case, but our culture is different from Europe yet there are things we could learn from them ie how NOT to make a socialist society as well as how we CAN streamline our education system. Some things they do better, some tings they do different and some things they screw up. The same can be said for this country.

Second, Ms Okie has her MASTERS in nursing that is why I was using RN as an example, but I could pick any degree and wonder why does it now take 5-6 years of education to get a four year degree with extra crap that is not directly related to the degree. BTW I used to be a paramedic and have also looked into RN programs and a PA program of late. While I am sure your friend gets something from his extra classes it is still unnecessary. If he likes taking those classes more power to him but for the average college student trying to get a degree and go into the world it is just more expense they have to go in debt for and/or their parents pay for. Add to that is is classes many are not interested in and it distracts them from their goal. Academia is out of touch with the real world and need to pull their head out of their four point of contact and look how low we score on the leading world of education. Instead of pushing PC bullshit to further their agenda, they need to educate students to go into the real world, something many of them just don't get that, they live in the world of academics and theory instead of reality. BTW that goes for K through PhD department.

Third. You may have a point on this one. In fact you are probably correct. As I rethink it and look at your numbers, check degree requirements etc money is not the motivation factor. My new thought it is pushing their liberal agenda on all students.

The same could be said about the military. If you want to succeed in college or the military, you have to play the game by their rules.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

EDIT: BTW does the military recognize and give credit for college degrees? Yes, in fact they are required for O positions for the most part and Masters and above score well on OAR's. There USED to be a program where AD officers could go back and get higher level degrees and that was their duty assignment. It might still be in place I don' know, the the military recognizes accomplishments outside of its self, why does academia not? IMHO they are just arrogant and self serving.

That's not giving credit (as a college), the degree is a prerequisite for the job.

When I was in SFTG, there was a guy in my land navigation class who was a civil engineer who mapped timber land for a living. Do you think SFTG let him skip that block of instruction??? No way Josey! The guy should have been teaching the course

I call bullshit on your HO.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

First you must think I hate everything about Europe.

I think a great many of your posts on this BB pretty well establish your views on those who do not live their lives as you think they should regardless of where they live.

I think that a great many of your posts contribute to a larger pattern. This pattern sees America rejecting guidance it received more than two centuries ago and hurls the nation to utter ruin.

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.*

__________________________________________________
* George Washington, "Farewell Address," September, 19, 1796.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

r point using your example I disagree with it. There is no reason the Army medic program is not as good or better than the local college EMT basic program. Mind you that is what I did as a living for 9 years and taught the medic program, PHTLS instructor, ACLS, PALS bla bla bla.

If you disagree with the H with the IMHO I could care less. I have formed my opinion from experience and again neither of us will change the others mind so we will have to agree to disagree.

EMT = Vocational training, be it in the Army, at a community college, or VoTech.


Your experience appears to be at the CC level....My wife has been on the faculty of a very large state university for over 30 years...so having been a student at two universities, I have been exposed to both sides of the equation for a many, many years.

BTW, I fail to see that your timber story has anything to do with the subject of this thread.

If an EMT enlists in the Army, will they let him/her skip any portion(s) of the training for medics? How about first aid instruction in basic?

[Richard]

Education offers the potential to gain perspective, context, and opportunity, and America, like no other nation in the world, offers the opportunity to gain an education...even if it's in hamburger technology.

A well-informed mind is the best security against the contagion of folly and of vice. The vacant mind is ever on the watch for relief, and ready to plunge into error, to escape from the languor of idleness.
- Ann Radcliffe (1764 - 1823), The Mysteries of Udolpho, 1764

A few thoughtful reads that - combined with my personal experiences as a student, teacher, and edcational administrator - influenced my thinking on education:

• John Kuhn's Fear and Learning in America - Bad Data, Good Teachers, and the Attack on Public Education. Teachers College Press, NY.
• Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities - Children In America's Schools. HarperCollins, NY.
• Frederick Rudolph's The American College and University - A History. Univ of Georgia Press.
• Craig Steven Wilder's Ebony and Ivy - Race, Slavery, and the Troubled History of America's Universities. Bloomsbury Press, NY.

Gutes lesen.

Richard

[Trapper John]

Sigaba & Richard

That about sums it up IMO. Sometimes I think we have forgotten the real purpose of an eduction - to develop critical thinking skills and learn how to learn. And yes there is value in a nursing or engineering or chemistry student taking political science, or art, or history, or philosophy, or English literature from Chaucer to Dunne.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

A couple of years ago they University had cut all their majors that were relevant to the area except nursing, and added environmental friendly courses. Mind you this place USED to be the top college in the US for forestry programs to get into logging. Guess what, they got rid of their nursing program and kept shit degrees that no one can really use. here are some I got off their site.

Energy and Climate
Ecological restoration
Energy and Climate
Native American Studies.

I just noticed: Multicultural Queer Studies. I shit you not.

http://www.humboldt.edu/humboldt/pro...riptions/1573/

http://www.humboldt.edu/humboldt/programs/type

I don't know why you find that hard to believe? I don't find any of those majors odd or useless. If I had the time, I'd persue a degree in Native American Studies

http://www.indiana.edu/~gender/resou...sStudies.shtml

Originally Posted by Trapper John

Sigaba & Richard

That about sums it up IMO. Sometimes I think we have forgotten the real purpose of an eduction - to develop critical thinking skills and learn how to learn. And yes there is value in a nursing or engineering or chemistry student taking political science, or art, or history, or philosophy, or English literature from Chaucer to Dunne.

Amen! I believe some here never understood the concept!

[Pete]

Originally Posted by WCH

I don't know why you find that hard to believe? I don't find any of those majors odd or useless. If I had the time, I'd persue a degree in Native American Studies

http://www.indiana.edu/~gender/resou...sStudies.shtml

It all depends on what you want to do with the degree. Doesn't really mater if you're just learning for learning's sake.

This is dated from 2011 but does cover some of the major degree fields.

"The College Majors That Do Best in the Job Market"

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...he-job-market/

"...The major that produced the most graduates in jobs that required degrees was education and teaching; 71.1 percent of this discipline’s alumni had jobs for which a bachelor’s was a prerequisite. This is probably not surprising, since so many of these grads became teachers.

Engineering had the next-best track record, with 69.4 percent of its graduates placed in college labor market jobs.

The majors with the worst placement records were area studies (44.7 percent in degree-requiring jobs) and humanities (45.4 percent)...."

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by Pete

It all depends on what you want to do with the degree. Doesn't really mater if you're just learning for learning's sake.

This is dated from 2011 but does cover some of the major degree fields.

"The College Majors That Do Best in the Job Market"

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...he-job-market/

"...The major that produced the most graduates in jobs that required degrees was education and teaching; 71.1 percent of this discipline’s alumni had jobs for which a bachelor’s was a prerequisite. This is probably not surprising, since so many of these grads became teachers.

Engineering had the next-best track record, with 69.4 percent of its graduates placed in college labor market jobs.

The majors with the worst placement records were area studies (44.7 percent in degree-requiring jobs) and humanities (45.4 percent)...."

Interesting point. Around 2000 my sister in law's sister graduated from Georgetown University with a degree in Middle Eastern studies that included learning Arabic. Everyone told her that she would never find a job with an education like that. I sh*t you not, a few months after the 9/11 attacks some folks who work for a U.S. government agency came and knocked on her door.

[sinjefe]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

I think a great many of your posts on this BB pretty well establish your views on those who do not live their lives as you think they should regardless of where they live.

Sorry, but that is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Richard]

...a degree in Native American Studies.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

If you are a guy trying to get a degree it is useless or next to it.

If you want to go to college and for pure enrichment purposes only fine, but for someone that wants to get a degree that he can enhance getting a job its as useless as tits on a bore hog.

Anectdotally, I disagree.

I hired a teacher with an MA in Native American Studies who had spent many years in the Southwest and was fluent in Spanish. He taught 1 class of Native American History and 4 classes of Spanish per semester for our high school students. As a unique offering to our social studies programs, his class was always full. He now runs the YMCA's community programs for Shreveport, LA.

A healthy person without a criminal background and a degree (including something like Native American Studies) from an accredited college or university can apply for entry level career training in something like OCS or a major metropolitan PD or many other career choices. Without it, many of those choices are limited.

A degree, even if it is specific (e.g., JD, MD, BSCE, BSN, etc), only offers opportunity. It then becomes a matter of what you do with the opportunity.

My daughter-in-law has a BA in English Lit. She has a very well-paid job for AT&T editing documents and publications produced by their übergeeks so people like us can understand what they were trying to say.

My youngest son's degree is in Art History and Biology. He was interested in medical illustration and thought he wanted to teach, but couldn't find a position at a high school and didn't enjoy the lower school crowd. He co-manages an electronics store and is engaged in the hiring process for a major metropolitan FD. If he didn't have a 4 year degree, they wouldn't have even considered him.

My undergrad is in General Studies (more or less a broad high school approach through college with a focus on History because I was interested in many things) and my grad degree is in West European Studies (one of those area studies programs) with additional post-grad coursework in education. The education I received in those programs, combined with my life experiences, served me well in my military and educational careers.

FWIW - I, too, would like to take some courses in Native American history but am currently looking to take some courses beginning this summer in viticulture from UC Davis for personal interest and some plans we have here on the ranch.

Good luck with your studies, but I'd advise against taking such a self-limiting view of them and encouraging others to do the same. MOO.

Richard

[GratefulCitizen]

When it comes to hoop-jumping, education institutions will do whatever the market allows.

The problems aren't created by the institutions.
The problems are market distortions created by excess federal subsidies and gate-keeping power created by occupational licensing.

FWIW, if pay is your goal in getting a degree, pick the right major.
http://www.payscale.com/college-sala...t-pay-you-back

[Roguish Lawyer]

Not to piss in anyone's cheerios, but if I join the army now, do I get to start as a Colonel?

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by charlietwo

Whole post

Brother,

All well said and your right. I have jumped from college because of what you wrote. Yes like many have said college is a game, heck so is the Military.

Hopefully people get from your article, everyone else can be haters.