Slippery slope @ Columbia

[PSM]

Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead

1.Who pays for the two headed child if there are birth defects?

Let them pay for themselves; bring back Freak Shows!

Pat

[Richard]

Undocumented Common-Law Sex-Ed Mentoring - I'm sure it's tucked away in the sequestering bill somewhere.

Richard

[MTN Medic]

Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead

I'm pretty much with Dusty. I have a few questions.

Accidents happen.
1.Who pays for the two headed child if there are birth defects?
2, Do consents adults have to consider damage to third parties? Mommy/wife/ex-wife.

My opinion is if you do something only you and your partner are responsable for the outcome and cost of the outcome. Since in the US today other people are partially responsable for the cost of bad behavior then they have a vote in the activity too.

Well, therein lies the rub. We, as a Nation have gone so far towards making everyone equal that the original concept of the formation of our Nation is impossible to implement at this juncture. With Obama care, I don't want people to smoke or drink as it will mean I have to pay more. What would be a whole lot better is for people to be responsible for themselves and to take care of themselves and their friends and family.

People are CREATED equal. This does not mean that they are equal when they are adults. I have generally kicked ass with my life and have plenty of money saved up at a young age, take pride in my education and continue it at every juncture and nurture an excellent relationship with my family all while being in really damn good shape. Problem is, BECAUSE I rock, I have to suffer because people want to force me to subsidize others' general lack of kickassitivity.

I am not naive in that I think that my ideals (the Nation's ideals really) could be implemented today. I do think it is what we have to strive for and therefore, many of the transformations we have seen in the last 3 decades need to be repealed. I long await the age of personal responsibility where being kick-ass is rewarded with financial security and happiness and my burden for being non-kickass is mine and mine alone.

Reminds me of Atlas Shrugged really.

[alelks]

Along the same lines as this discussion:

485177_546790508676817_501006598_n[1].jpg

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by MTN Medic

Reminds me of Atlas Shrugged really.

As I have said before, there are many John Galts here and this is Galt's Gultch.

Hang in there Brother.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

This is a really good discussion! At the risk of creating a cross-thread point, I stated in the "Planned Parenthood Official...." thread that we should not attempt to legislate morality and a couple of the Brothers called me out on that statement. I mention this here because I think the point you are making and what I meant by that statement are the same thing, although I did not state what I meant very well.

Morality in a society is defined by its dominant theology. Now, we are also a society that believes in the secular Rule of Law and those secular laws stem, at least in part, from the theology (as Dusty so succinctly said "when Moses humped those two rocks down the mountain"). Throw in the belief in the sanctity of the individual and we begin to take a ride down the rabbit hole to a place where things are not so clear cut.

To illustrate my point, MR2 commented that murder was immoral (sorry MR2 if I am taking license here, but I really am trying to make a point). Ostensibly this stems from the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Well, that cannot be strictly adhered to - is killing in self-defense, defense of others, war, etc, immoral? So, we made a special case - murder is immoral and therefore, there are instances where killing is not immoral, but actually can be a moral act.

We now have transgressed into the realm of ethics. It can be ethical to kill but still immoral in the strict theological sense, i.e. situational ethics and not situational morality.

So that the MODs don't flogg me for this cross-thread point, I will now attempt to bring this back to topic

Our system of governance attempts (brilliantly so IMO) to modulate the obvious tyranny that evolves from a strict interpretation of moral law and balance the sanctity of individual liberty with the need for a moral compass in a civilized society. At this juncture in our secular law incest is illegal. As we make each exception to moral law (as our Judea Christian society defines it) it becomes easier to rationalize the next exception. Extending that line of thinking, we really go down the rabbit hole and nothing has any meaning because everything is relative. No society can remain in any organized or recognizable form in that case and that is the Achilles heal of a libertarian philosophy.

Societies are held together by common values which are enforced by the threat of being ostracized.
Empires, from warlords to world-spanning, are held together by the threat of force (government).

A society holds people out if they dont adhere to a certain standard (~religion).
An empire holds people in with force and places them within a hierarchy (natural trend of all government).


The Navajo are an excellent example of a people held together by common values rather than government.
Their traditions (~laws) are no less carefully designed than our own Constitution.

In their case, incest laws were designed to prevent a "ruling class" and the tyranny which follows.

[MTN Medic]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Societies are held together by common values which are enforced by the threat of being ostracized.
Empires, from warlords to world-spanning, are held together by the threat of force (government).

A society holds people out if they dont adhere to a certain standard (~religion).
An empire holds people in with force and places them within a hierarchy (natural trend of all government).


The Navajo are an excellent example of a people held together by common values rather than government.
Their traditions (~laws) are no less carefully designed than our own Constitution.

In their case, incest laws were designed to prevent a "ruling class" and the tyranny which follows.

Common values don't have to be a religion. The common values in this nation were supposed to be freedom but we are letting that one get away from us I fear.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by MTN Medic

Common values don't have to be a religion. The common values in this nation were supposed to be freedom but we are letting that one get away from us I fear.

Agreed, that's why I put "~" in front of "religion".
However, freedom only works when the people restrain themselves.

Freedom without self-restraint is anarchy.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Agreed, that's why I put "~" in front of "religion".
However, freedom only works when the people restrain themselves.

Freedom without self-restraint is anarchy.

The founders often commented (Fed papers etc) that a free society would only work with self restraint...the Judeo/Christian morality was the construct they embraced as it was a constant among that group and in the Colonies.
Constant redefinition of wrong/right...what is good/bad...moral relativism on each and any belief system will destroy a self restrained free society.
A free society may not have the wherewithal to adjust or to compensate for that downward spiral.
Within self restraint and freedom of expression there is a happy medium. The self restraint creates that happy medium, without it......

[MTN Medic]

Originally Posted by PRB

The founders often commented (Fed papers etc) that a free society would only work with self restraint...the Judeo/Christian morality was the construct they embraced as it was a constant among that group and in the Colonies.
Constant redefinition of wrong/right...what is good/bad...moral relativism on each and any belief system will destroy a self restrained free society.
A free society may not have the wherewithal to adjust or to compensate for that downward spiral.
Within self restraint and freedom of expression there is a happy medium. The self restraint creates that happy medium, without it......

I don't really subscribe to the Judeo-Christian foundation of our country. The founding fathers mentioned God and some of the principles they utilized are found in the Bible (as they are also found in the Koran) but really, most of the documentation is relatively devoid of religion.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by MTN Medic

I don't really subscribe to the Judeo-Christian foundation of our country. The founding fathers mentioned God and some of the principles they utilized are found in the Bible (as they are also found in the Koran) but really, most of the documentation is relatively devoid of religion.

Maybe the docs, but not the Founders' hearts, which inspired the docs.

A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible

(This list is by no means exhaustive; many other Founders could be included, and even with those who appear below, additional quotes could have been used.)

John Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6

John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].8

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9


Samuel Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.10

The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.11

I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12

He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .

the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.13
we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.14
with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.15

Josiah Bartlett


MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.16

Gunning Bedford

MILITARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE

To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen.17

Elias Boudinot

PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT

Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.18

A letter to his daughter:

You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature – the absolute necessity of a change of heart and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ – of salvation through His meritorious righteousness only – and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord [Hebrews 12:14]. You are well acquainted that the most perfect and consummate doctrinal knowledge is of no avail without it operates on and sincerely affects the heart, changes the practice, and totally influences the will – and that without the almighty power of the Spirit of God enlightening your mind, subduing your will, and continually drawing you to Himself, you can do nothing. . . . And may the God of your parents (for many generations past) seal instruction to your soul and lead you to Himself through the blood of His too greatly despised Son, Who notwithstanding, is still reclaiming the world to God through that blood, not imputing to them their sins. To Him be glory forever!19
For nearly half a century have I anxiously and critically studied that invaluable treasure [the Bible]; and I still scarcely ever take it up that I do not find something new – that I do not receive some valuable addition to my stock of knowledge or perceive some instructive fact never observed before. In short, were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant. Were you to ask me for one affording the most rational and pleasing entertainment to the inquiring mind, I should repeat, it is the Bible; and should you renew the inquiry for the best philosophy or the most interesting history, I should still urge you to look into your Bible. I would make it, in short, the Alpha and Omega of knowledge.20

That's just a smattering.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissue...es.asp?id=8755

[Oldrotorhead]

I'm more committed to the Constitution and ideas than the real estate . As long as there isn't a better place with a better Constitution I'll continue to be anti-PC and argue with Liberals. State's rights seems to be the best bet for now.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Oldrotorhead

I'm more committed to the Constitution and ideas than the real estate . As long as there isn't a better place with a better Constitution I'll continue to be anti-PC and argue with Liberals. State's rights seems to be the best bet for now.

In your case, for sure.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by MTN Medic

I don't really subscribe to the Judeo-Christian foundation of our country. The founding fathers mentioned God and some of the principles they utilized are found in the Bible (as they are also found in the Koran) but really, most of the documentation is relatively devoid of religion.

I'd suggest reading the Federalist Papers....the group below American Political Science Review...is a non religious affiliated lawyers org. They drew numerous ideas and cultural legal aspects from the Bible etc. without direct reference.

“A study by the American Political Science Review on the political documents of the founding era (1760-1805), [reported] that 94 percent of the period’s documents were based on the Bible, with 34 percent of the contents being direct citations from the Bible. The Scripture was the bedrock and blueprint of our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, academic arenas and heritage until the last quarter of a century.”

The Capitol building was used as a Church for years...
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

[Richard]

Western Culture of which Judeo/Christian philosophical tenets and traditions were but a part.

Richard