Marines Pose with SS Flag

[hoot72]

Hate to say this but, it's one controversy after another with the military and it doesn't do the US military any good whenever these sorts of incidents/stories get out...some common sense is needed especially with the amount of media spotlight there is in today's society.

Common sense needed.

[Spitfire34]

I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.

[Sigaba]

The MRFF, an organization that is pressuring the USMC to investigate this matter fully. Chris Rodda, the MRFF's senior research director, has posted the following on the organization's website. The source is here.

Those Marines Bought an SS Flag Without Knowing What it Was? Seriously? That’s Your Excuse?

by Chris Rodda, MRFF Senior Research Director

Of all the really hard to believe excuses the military has made for the actions of military personnel, this one has to take the cake. Those Marines posing with a Nazi SS flag in Afghanistan just didn’t know it was an SS flag!

Yesterday, this photo went viral: [Click to see image]

If you somehow managed to miss all of the countless stories about this photo, here’s the AP version.

There are also a whole bunch of articles with titles like “Marines: Nazi flag was mistaken for their own,” since the Marine Corps’ official excuse is that the use of the flag was just a naive mistake on the part of Marines who didn’t know what the flag was and just thought the SS stood for Sniper Scout.

Really? And just how does someone go about buying a Nazi SS flag without realizing that it’s a Nazi SS flag? Well, I spent hours yesterday afternoon and last night trying to do just that, scouring the web for an SS flag that could be bought by mistake. And, big surprise, I couldn’t find a single place where an SS flag wasn’t very clearly being sold as what it is — a Nazi flag.

In the course of searching, I found what I’m certain is the exact flag in the Marines’ photo. It’s the only one anywhere on the web with a blue background, and laying the image from the website on top of the Marines’ photo shows that every dimension of the flags are identical, from the size and proportions of every part of the logo to the slightly off-center position of the logo on the flag. You can even see in the Marines’ photo that their flag had the same creases from being folded as the flag for sale on the website.

[Click to see image.]

The description of the flag on the website, Traders of the Lost Surplus, is an “ss double runic flag, a favorite and well know ss flag,” and the entire website is full of Nazi stuff. No Marine, even if they previously didn’t know that this was a Nazi symbol, could possibly be so dumb that they wouldn’t realize at this point that this is a Nazi flag! Even if someone was unfamiliar with the SS logo, all the swastika items would certainly tip them off.

Here’s a screen grab from the website, with the blue SS flag at the lower left [See attachment.]

As Gawker put it, “But then how you end up acquiring Schutzstaffel flag? Unless our men in uniform sewed the flag themselves, you’d think the whole ‘Please make your check out of Nazi Memorabilia ‘R’ Us’ thing would have tipped them off.”

The Atlantic Wire isn’t buying the naive mistake excuse either, posting an article titled “Marine Corps Insists Marines Are Too Dumb to Know This Is a Nazi Flag.”

Are people in our military seriously ignorant about history? Probably.* That “Jesus Loves Nukes” missile officer training that the Military Religious Freedom Foundation got the Air Force to nix did include a slide of former Nazi and SS officer Wernher von Braun being quoted as a moral authority. And there is a constant stream of Christian nationalist pseudo-history in base newspapers throughout the military, as well as in military training presentations (but that’s a story for another day).

But historical ignorance can not excuse these Marines using the SS flag. No matter how little they know about history, it’s just impossible to believe that they could have bought that flag without finding out what it was in the process of buying it.

The Marine Corps must think we’re all pretty naive to believe their excuse that these Marines were that naive.

_______________________________________________
* Williamson Murray and Richard Hart Sinnreich raised this question in the introduction to the essays presented in The Past as Prologue: The Importance of History to the Military Profession (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006), 1-11.

[Pete]

..............from folks who think a Che T-Shirt is cool.

[5thgrp"C"]

Before the Army I was in a Scout Sniper PLT out of Lejeune. The command can say what they want about not knowing, this symbol has been used as far back as any of us could remember. Our sniper instructors had the symbol branded into them upon graduation of sniper school, the history on that was the instructors would make the brand for the class, give one out on graduation day. Then the whole class would go out get drunk and brand each other. Now by the time my generation was going through school branding was no longer accepted so tattoos were what people got. I will say I did not considering I come from a minority filled city I didn't want to explain to each and every person that I meant for it to symbolize scout sniper. Considering most guys got it on the back of their necks, I felt they were just asking for an attack from behind, at the time I was a little older then my peers by a couple of years, maybe my indestructible toughness was already wearing off.

The sniper culture has promoted this symbol from the top down. To ride the PLT level shooters about this is the wrong answer. I remember seeing senior guys show off their brand as a mark of passage, and these were E7s and above, the guys who were in charge of the Scout Sniper School and major programs.

Then again maybe they are just paving the way to a kinder and more considerate time when women can feel at peace to join the unit.

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Spitfire34

I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.

Sorry Spitfire, this is controversy the Corps brought on themselves. They were warned in the early 80s when this was first brought up that it was a bad idea and would be met with scorn. Those are SS runes and they were adopted by a white supremacist in the scout snipers back in the 80s when that crap was cool. This is not the media dumping on the Marine Corps, it is the Marine Corps f**king up.

You are justifiably proud of the Marine Corps, they are a great unit wiht a proud history, this one though, not so much so.

My 2 cents and I have been around the snipers for a while.

[Richard]

If all this is true, and I suspect it is, then the students have been running the kindergarten for awhile now and this one is an epic fail on the part of USMC leadership. Sad.

Richard

[The Reaper]

Attention!

All hands hear this.

THE WAR IS OVER.

YOUR SERVICES ARE NO LONGER NEEDED.

ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL WILL NOW REPORT FOR REPROGRAMMING AND OUTPROCESSING.

EXCEPT THOSE OF YOU SELECTED FOR WAR CRIMES TRIALS.

That is all.

TR

[CloseDanger]

Forgive me of constantly trying to back our troops. Sometimes they do stupid things, but they also are embracing the suck. Ergo, as they fight the war overseas, and I fight the war here at home, I try to prevent them from being the centerpiece in a very toxic political environment.

Maybe all I should have said was "no excuse".

[FMF DOC]

Originally Posted by bubblehead

This is on par with those idiots who decided to piss on the corpses of the enemy, and to FILM IT

Poor disply of tact, professionalism, and SA in both cases.

Typical reply coming from an analysts

[Richard]

I remember when we had some guys in Group who were reenactors in the WW2HRS, including the LSSAH ( http://www.lssah.com/kt2.html ). I was looking into joining, too, but - ironically - came down on orders for Bad Tölz (the pic in the link shows the SS-Junkerschule at Bad Tölz which later became Flint Kaserne, the HQs for SF in Germany), left and never joined.

The guys who joined the LSSAH reenactors studied the history, traditions, and tactics, and wore the uniforms and equipment when participating in reenactment gatherings. Some of them were of Nordic ancestry and some just interested in the history, but I never saw anybody sport any symbolic Nazi tattos of a swastika or siegrunen.

I did meet a number of former members of the WSS during my time at Tölz and some of our guys were avid memorabilia collectors, but nobody wanted to be seen as being associated with Nazi philosophical ideals. For my part, it was both interesting and informative to sit and talk history and tactics with men who had literally spent years fighting the Soviets on the harsh OstFront - which would have been our enemy and AO if the 'balloon' had ever 'gone up' for us then.

We had a team patch made which incorporated the image of a medevil teutonic hunting dagger (which was also used by the SS), replacing the image of the vertical knife of the SF SSI to symbolize our being stationed in the former Junkerschule - but the Siegrunen and Nazi eagle were replaced with the atomic energy symbol relative to our team's focus (atchd) to prevent any misperception of our intent.

I did see such Nazi symbols and tattos while growing up - they were being used by overtly racist groups and hardcore motorcycle gang members.

It amazes me that any member or organization of the US military would think it was OK to condone or sport such an image, or claim they did not understand any of the symbolism associated with it.

Anybody check those historically challenged scout snipers to ensure they don't have their blood type tattoed under their left armpit?

And so it goes...

Richard

Marines, they're just special.
Whenever we have some of them transient and they get liberty and go out in town they never fail to raise the bar on stupid.
Alas, if I had a penny for every time I had to work my butt off to keep theirs out of trouble with the local LEO's I'd be a gatrizillionaire by now.
Common sense seems to become every day less common.

[Red Flag 1]

Originally Posted by PSM

Maybe it's a Department of the Navy thing. This is on their Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado:

You just out did your self Pat. The perfect pic!

RF 1

[plato]

Originally Posted by akv

Perhaps in an alternate universe or if you live in a bubble. The power of symbols and perception in human society is a constant, for better or worse all of us are under constant scrutiny, with ramifications for our words and actions.

I respect what you're saying, and I *almost* agree with the first sentence.

I come from a different universe, through time and space. (OK, time).

If I weren't fearless, I'd find that second sentence almost scary. I do find it inaccurate and offer the below.

I drove a wrecker, on call at night, while I was in H.S. Took a call and turned over a flipped pickup truck that had seven very intoxicated teens, including two of my cousins.

One of the passengers was crippled by the accident, losing the use of his left arm and seriously affecting the use of his left leg. Later, he became handicapped, then disadvantaged, then impeded, then challenged. After that he was disabled and then differently abled. Wait, maybe he was challenged between being disabled and then differently abled. It's impossible to keep track.

During a long overdue HS reunion I sat down with an old friend and Johnny Walker. We decided that there were groups of Ivy League sophomores jerking American chains to see how obedient we were, possibly Yalies changing us to one term, then challenging Harvard to affect a faster change in "approved terminology" than the one they had instituted. The more Johnny Walker added to the conversation, the more we leaned toward figuring it was a conspiracy by liberal professors.

The following day with Jim Beam, we observed tradition and blamed everything on
women. (though I am still wary of Yalies).

I am one of the vanilla majority. Grandpa looked at the back end of a mule for 12 hours during the summer while grandma breast-fed the babies. They didn't think of alternating duties. Sorry about the lack of advancement opportunities for women during that era.

I wore the uniform of the US Army for 12 years. I did not operate Elmira Prison and did not fire a weapon at My Lai. Neither did I drop bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

During my combat time, I delivered prisoners wherever I was told, even to the infamous "White Mice". I think of them as the Vietnamese SS. YMMV.

All my baseball caps say "Army" along with whatever other witticism or boast that's included. I even put on the old field jacket as an "identity assist" when at gatherings where the vets often wander off together for "were you there when" sessions.

The symbol means what it means to ME.
And, I claim the right to be just as disobedient as the "poor me" groups.

Any person who decides to be offended by past events in my army's history....Anyone (especially reporters) who decides that MY symbols mean I am proud that prisoners starved, and that civilians have been killed...

Can look at the skull and crossbones on my hat until my fist obscures his vision.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Plato

The symbol means what it means to ME.

That's fine, but there are ramifications. I don't believe "off the record" exists in nature. People will form perceptions of you, most of whom don't know you based on your appearance, actions, job, vocabulary, etc, and once an impression is formed, deserved or not it will affect and follow you.

Consider someone who locks their keys in a car three times in one day, most of us would think that's pretty dumb. Say perception is Sarah Palin is an idiot, and Einstein was a genius. If each of them locked themselves out of their car three times in a day, people for this very same act would cite this as evidence, that " wow that Palin sure is dumb" but "wow that Einstein is such an absent minded genius".

or put another way on the " Common Sense Tips for Life List"

"Unless you are cool being associated with Nazis, don't get your picture taken posing next to a flag with SS runes."

falls somewhere between,

"flossing is a good idea"

and,

" don't get your wife a vacuum for Xmas."