It's Just Wrong...

[alelks]

Originally Posted by craigepo

My poorly-written point was not meant to be personal, impugn anyone's beliefs, or to imply that certain persons are better than others. It was simply to illustrate that the money collected by churches is very often put to good use, a use that is often maligned and consistently ignored. Moreover, the pooling of this money allows the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

No harm brother. Sometimes it's hard to deduce the true meaning of a post as it was intended. I've done it too in the past and had to back peddle as after reading my post it didn't come over the way I wanted it to.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by incarcerated

Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…

Really? Who's not getting along?

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Richard

Council of Nicea - a textbook case business marketing and sales strategy meeting.

All this reminds me of the following:

The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.

Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."

Richard

I actually heard that clip....things that make your jaw drop.....

[PRB]

FWIW the 'money machine' seems smarmy to me. Inhuman.
OTOH my wife and I give reg thru the Church, she was the lead on that but I've seen where the money can really do good things for folks that are in need and we get a financial statement every year showing what goes where.
It isn't my nature, I've been close with the dough all of my life but I've found that the more we give has never made a dif in our lifestyle, there always seems to be more than we need. How that works, well, who knows huh.
Churches can be vetted in much the same way charitible org can so if you decide to give do the same checking.
I've always been proud that Americans are generous people.

[CSB]

Maybe that ATM thing needs to be off in a side room, where no one can see you enter ...

Matthew 6:3

But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

[Hand]

Originally Posted by craigepo

I find this thread interesting.

I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could... snip .

As a former resident of the Mississippi gulf coast, I saw the exact same thing first hand. A church van from Pennsylvania full of young, old, male, female pulled up across the street from my house every day and put my neighbors house back together, even taking the time to enhance the foyer with very nice arch shaped entrances. They asked for nothing, and did not over do their message.

The same scene played out all over the coast. Although it is mandated by the Bible that you give to your local body of believers, I feel that atm machine is beyond insulting.

[GratefulCitizen]

If a particular group wants to "guilt trip" somebody into giving, that is their problem.
Not much different from the practice of indulgences.

The concept of "giving" to the Almighty seems odd to me.
Can't "give" Him what's already His.

Always looked at doing good works, be it financial or something else, as a form of receiving good.
We're put in circumstances from time to time where we have the opportunity to do good.

Doing good works is a form of receiving from the Almighty be cause it changes character; makes us better.
It is an opportunity to participate in His good works.

"...all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"
-Isaiah 64:6

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Hand

As a former resident of the Mississippi gulf coast, I saw the exact same thing first hand. A church van from Pennsylvania full of young, old, male, female pulled up across the street from my house every day and put my neighbors house back together, even taking the time to enhance the foyer with very nice arch shaped entrances. They asked for nothing, and did not over do their message.

The same scene played out all over the coast. Although it is mandated by the Bible that you give to your local body of believers, I feel that atm machine is beyond insulting.

As a current resident of Mississippi and living 49 miles due north of N.O. during Katrina I can really admire the Christian groups that came down to help us so quickly with food,water and helping families with the essentials for babies and children...... I couldn't find FEMA or the Red Cross anywhere in site for at least a week or more..... The Mormons came with tractors to haul off 6 trees that landed on my roof........ The Salvation Army people came house to house offering assistance in giving us shelter with cots,blankets and a safe place to rest and sleep........ Enough said about where our money goes to these Christian groups........ Unless you've experience something like this please don't comment about where your money is being used ............

Big Teddy

[chance]

And people look at me stupid when I say I don't believe.

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by chance

And people look at me stupid when I say I don't believe.

Interesting signature block.

[Sigaba]

If one looks at the deposit machine from a business perspective, it could be an example of poor execution of a very good idea.

The good idea has five components. First, the machine provides parishioners a way to donate money securely. Where there's an opportunity to handle cash, there's an opportunity to pocket cash. Even if the probability of that theft may ostensibly be low, it can still happen. (As a kid sitting in his grandparents' church during the summers, I always assumed that the money being put into the collection trays as they wended along the pews went where it should but in retrospect, temptation is temptation.)

Second, the machine should allow for data collection that can be analyzed. Data analysis can help answer questions like: Is a church offering sermons that resonate among the laity? Are donations greater in certain conditions than in others? Can a church shape some of those conditions while remaining true to its purpose? (This "what if" focuses on the types of sermons being offered within certain environmental circumstances.) Is a church asking its parishioners for too much? (Look at the types of payment: cash, debit, or credit.)

Third, if there are data that can be analyzed, there are data that can be audited. One way to challenge the broadly held perception that organized religion leads to corrupt churches is to open the books. (Background checks wouldn't hurt either.)

Fourth, the technology may allow donors to get receipts for tax purposes. (Render unto Caesar.)

Fifth, the technology allows for donors to give in privacy. A level of privacy can help church goers give the right amount of money for the right reasons as opposed to peer pressure, showing off, or keeping up with the Joneses. (If the flock were perfect, it would need neither sheepdogs nor shepherd.)

What makes for poor execution is the presentation of the device. Put simply, the textual message is tacky. This issue can be addressed easily by the marketing/art department/business development/software teams of the vendor.

As for the broader issue of churches and charitable works, I'm ambivalent. If done poorly, charitable works can come across as the crass exploitation of business development/marketing opportunities. If done well, charitable works provide an opportunity to explore the depths of one's faith.

[TrapLine]

Originally Posted by PRB

my wife and I give reg thru the Church, she was the lead on that but I've seen where the money can really do good things for folks that are in need and we get a financial statement every year showing what goes where.
It isn't my nature, I've been close with the dough all of my life but I've found that the more we give has never made a dif in our lifestyle, there always seems to be more than we need. How that works, well, who knows huh.

This mirrors my own experience. It is funny how that works, isn't it.

[cold1]

Originally Posted by craigepo

I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could. The US government was not helping dig bodies out of the rubble---it was a region's worth of churches. People taking time off work, away from their own lives, to just come help.

On the periphery of the stricken area, various Christian organizations had set up tractor trailers for relief stuff. Food, clothing, shelter, everything was provided by organizations like the Convoy of Hope. Churches in the region donated so much stuff that those who had suffered from the tornado were taken care of almost immediately.

The Scottish Rite cathedral was packed with Masons from several states. They spent their time cooking and taking meals from the cathedral to the people working in the stricken area. One Mason brought a smoker and cooked 500 lbs of pork butts per day for the workers.

.

My Brothers place was hit by the tornado in Sanford NC. His had major damage but was still standing. His inlaws place was distroyed, everything but the foundation was gone. Within the first 2 hours, local churches and nieghbors were coming by and checking on everyone to make sure they had food, water clothing and shelter. Within the first two days, church organizations were comming by and "triaging" the area to form a work schedule. With in the first week all the debris was removed from the houses except for the tree on my brothers house. These religous groups used their time, money, and machinery to make short work of the devistation and asked for nothing in return. Not even a prayer session or a promise to attend church. They also never asked what religion you were or even if you believed. They came and asked if you needed help and if they could give it.

During that time everybody with a chainsaw stopped by and offered to help, for a "reasonable" price. This included Joe Bob in a pick up to commercial contractors in Mercedes. They did not care what religion you were either as long as you had money to give them. not just any amount but a very specific amount.

During this period the insurance companies were also performing triage so it took time for adjusters to get to everyone. During the first week of recovery, alot of people whose homes were not destroyed only got a quick visit from the adjusters. It took nearly two weeks before my brother got a check from them so that the tree could be removed from the house. It had to be proffesionally removed due to its size. It was the last piece to be cleaned up. When it was removed all the other clean up and landscaping had been done by church groups, if not for the smashed house you would not have known there had been any tornado.

If it had not been for the church groups, the cleanup of the entire area would have taken much longer and been much more expensive to insurance companies, the government, and to the individual home owners. The church groups do not do this for the recognition or the money. They do it because its the right thing to do.

As for the ATM in church, no thanks. I believe I would have to change churches if mine were to do that. It makes me believe that they are more interested in money than teaching the word of GOD.

[Saturation]

If your cousin was in Palm Beach County this church is well known as a mega-church here. They are well established as pushing the technology forward in a worship setting so it's no surprise to see this picture representing their latest technology.

Guess I'm more old fashioned and don't tolerate some of these 'advances' in church as well as others...

[Tress]

Originally posted by Richard:

All this reminds me of the following:

The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.

Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."

I read the above quote and almost wet my pants. Then after having stopped laughing and cleaning the monitor I had to try and find the video showing this. I googled through the world-wide-web and the only thing that I did find was evidence to the contrary.

Sorry, but Snopes would not allow me to copy the text so you will have to click the link to see the story.



http://www.snopes.com/katrina/humor/churches.asp