Marines Face Stiff Taliban Resistance 09/07/20

[Utah Bob]

The Marines are an assault force. Always have been. There's a time to employ them and let them use the tactics at which they are best. Sometimes you need a hammer or a real sharp spear.
Now, I can't say exactly what the situation was for this incident as my boots are firmly planted on the Colorado Plateau not the Afghan Plain but TR's post is dead on. We would be ill served in using too much hammer here.

I think we wrote the book on CI ops and that's what will get us out of this with our scalps intact, unlike the Brits, Russians, French etc.

[Praetorian]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

The Marines are an assault force. Always have been. There's a time to employ them and let them use the tactics at which they are best.

Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!

[MARSOC0211]

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!

Yes, the Corps falls in under the DoN (Dept. of the Navy).

Wikipedia has a pretty good / accurate description of the missions, roles, and responsiblities of the Marine Corps.

HTH

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Can somebody explain a rather rudimentary military question for me? Its something I've wondered about for a while. (I know my wife asked me the same question during the Iraq invasion and I didn't have an answer for her.)

To my limited military knowledge, the Marine Corp is a branch of the Navy. An amphibious type infantry force?

Why then are the Marines deployed to a landlocked country like Afghanistan?

Is there a general 'guideline' as to what branch goes where and when?

Thanks!

They are US combat troops. They go where they're ordered. That's up to the brains in the Pentagon. If you have combat troops, it's a good thing if they have some combat experience.

And by the way, it's Marine Corps.
It's not a corporation.

[MARSOC0211]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

And by the way, it's Marine Corps.
It's not a corporation.

Now you tell me, I thought this investment was going to pay off in stock options

[alright4u]

Only the men who have been there understand the locals. I have not been there, so; I cannot speculate.

[Dozer523]

Well, I was there . . . so I'll speculate. The population is key. These are a proud (not prideful) people who have been grossly mistreated throughout recent history. Especially so since the Russian Invasion, first by the Russians, then by the War Lords, then the Taliban. Now us? It may look to them that we are very much the same.
I was stationed in Kabul. Being FP we got to drive around the city and out to Camp Phoenix frequently. We conducted walking "presence patrols” within the city. Being SF the "little bro's" of Civil Affairs invited me to go along with them as they visited their projects all over the country. Being part of Anti-Terrorism cell I got to work with the local security force for our out-lying housing areas. I think I had a pretty good view.
From traveling around the city I saw the Afghan people are very young. The majority of the population is well under 18 years old. Two generations are under-educated. People do not live to 'ripe old ages' there. They love their children -- "gifts of God" and more then anything want the kids educated, and healthy. All the kids go to school. The adults want to have the "modern conveniences" like cell phones and internet. But they don't want to be Western. They want to be Afghans.
Traveling around with the Civil Affairs -- most of the CA at Camp Eggers were part of the legal cell. Afghans want a Justice system that works -- more at the Civil Level then the Criminal Level. The Italians actually have responsibility for advising them. They want a rule of law that is separate from religion. (As ours is separate yet influenced by our Judeo-Christian culture.) They want the influence of their religion but I didn't see (or hear any complaints/comments from the CA experts) that Muslim Law was desired.
From my dealings with the typical gate guard "guy off the street” they want a paycheck, to take pride in their work, be financially stable enough that they can have a wife, provide a better life for their children, and provide for their parents. They don't really care about the past of the guy next to them -- we had guys who had been in the Soviet sponsored Army, part of the structure supported by the Taliban, with the War Lords, with us. (If they cared about the past they were more interested in family connections.)
In the country-side they want the roads to be safe and the lights to turn on.
So what about opium? The Dozer solution is let the farmers grow all they want. Just require them to sell it all to the Government or the US or ISAF. Pay a living wage for it. Offer assistance with alternative crops so farmers can get off the easy to grow cash crop to more beneficial cash crops. They don't want heroin, they want cash. And they want to be left alone. With assistance farmers will return Afghanistan to being the food exporter they were before the arrival of the Russians. What else would help? What if we could design a power grid that allowed cheap, reliable electricity to flow into the country now and that could be converted to a means to export hydro-electric power after it is restored, improved?
They are good people they will respond positively to doing the exact things The Reaper lists. From my perspective doing those things are not only more productive then kicking in doors but a hell of a lot more fun. My oldest son has two tours completed in Iraq. When we have had this conversation he thinks "Maybe that would work with the Kurds but the Sunni and Shiite don't think that way. Drives home my concern that we cannot conduct these two conflicts the same way. Time and time again, the USMC has imposed lessons learned in Iraq inappropriately on Afghanistan. They are no more the same then football and soccer.
Lastly, I realized it was poor OPSEC in the classic sense but when I was out among the populace the fastest way to make a friend, gather a friendly crowd, earn a smile or a handshake was to pull out a picture of my kids. I instantly went from "guy with a gun from outside" to "guy just like me, who will go home when he's done helping."
I'm looking forward to going back. But this time I'll speak pashtu.

[Richard]

And by the way, it's Marine Corps.

We used to spell it Marine Corpse...back when.

We also used to remind them the largest amphibious landings in the ETO and PTO were executed by the US Army.

Ahhhh...dontcha just love them time honored inter-service rivalries...

Well, I was there . . . so I'll speculate.

Well thought-out speculation.

Richard's $.02

[alright4u]

Thanks. "Extremely informative." My research on Afghan was limited to the internet for the people, history, etc. Not area study quality for sure. Most history stated the Pastuns controlled things?

Seems like most agree DA / kicking in doors in populated areas is not bright.

I am lost on this NATO idea.

Are any of the NATO troops SF? If so, are there any who are good at working with, recruiting, organizing, training, and leading these local troops, or how does that work there? I am not expectecting an OPSEC breach reply. Perhaps, someone would be kind enough to share his view of various NATO troops? Even a PM would be appreciated.

Is there some law/custom or rule in Afghan that prevents us from hiring , training, organizing, and leading Afghan troops, plus paying them directly? I ask as it appears we have taken some warlord/local CO and his troops on some OPS in the past..

Does the enemy often engage US, NATO, and Afghan troops when they can use civilains?


I have not read the "new" COIN" FM/manual, but; why do we reinvent wheels all the the time? Now, last, is Afghan more of a CI or UW war or what would those who have been there and actually been out with the local troops or Afghan Gov troops on combat OPS call it?

Thanks. I am trying to understand/learn. If a PM is appropriate -please feel free to PM. If no one wants to reply, I understand, too.

[Richard]

I am lost on this NATO idea.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_8189.htm

Gutes lesen.

Richard's $.02

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Richard

We used to spell it Marine Corpse...back when.

We also used to remind them the largest amphibious landings in the ETO and PTO were executed by the US Army.

Ahhhh...dontcha just love them time honored inter-service rivalries...



Well thought-out speculation.

Richard's $.02

The Marine Hymn also goes well to the tune of My Darling Clementine.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

The Marine Hymn also goes well to the tune of My Darling Clementine.

Try Amazing Grace sung to the tune of Gilligan's Island.

Or Gilligan's Island sung to the tune of Amazing Grace.

I know a guy that can do both. And after a few drinks both are hard to listen to with a straight face.

[MARSOC0211]

Come on now gents, can't we all just get along

[Utah Bob]

Originally posted by MARSOC0211
Come on now gents, can't we all just get along?

I thought we were.
You're just outnumbered is all.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Sometimes the rules do not apply and it is the right thing to do.

Absolutely. That said, someone reading this may learn a valuable lesson from Dozer's excellent TTP and find a picture of some nice, young children on the Internet, print it off, laminate it and stick it in their wallet to gain the same result with less PERSEC risk.