Rifle Scope Needed

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by frostfire

Here are some resources to flatten the learning curve (or in my case it helps to spend some time in study/simulation before range time). Hope you find them helpful.

All copy and paste

snipercountry.com/Articles/RealTruthAboutMilDots.asp by none other than Rick B/Longrange1947

shooterready.com/mildot.html

demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting

Great stuff, thanks!!!

[longrange1947]

RL - Remember, I was booted from college for my poor English writing skills, that may contribute to the difficulty in reading the article and not your abilities.

Blitzz - One of the reasons that I do not like the ART series is that the scope is stuck on a certain size object to range and that the scope will be at different power settings at different ranges. I will admit that I have not used the newer models but I spent years with the older models as I stared in the earlier posts. The ARTI was a better scope IMHO then the ARTII as it was less complicated and the split in power and range caused a slip in the cam when that little piece of metal slid out of it's notch. The MPC was just an upgrade to try and get the ART up for Urban/hostage situations.

I am not sure how they can claim that one cam will fit all trajectories as that goes against the trajectory pattern. When one bullet has a bullet drop of 6 feet at 800 and another has a bullet drop of only 4 feet then you have a problem.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

RL - Remember, I was booted from college for my poor English writing skills, that may contribute to the difficulty in reading the article and not your abilities.

Believe me, it's not the writing! I just need to reactivate the parts of my brain that do math . . .

[Roguish Lawyer]

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

First I do concur with the ART I being better than the ART II, but the difference between those an the new are great. I used he ART I from '75 to '79 and the ART II from '80 to '83. I made 1250 meter shots with the ART I (with a lot of hold over) and used to shoot Oranges with the ART II at 300 meters. We only had a 300 meter range at that time.
The problem you speak of is the fact that seperating the Power ring and Ballistic cam for a "better view" would be left that way if one was not religous in returning the two together. If you didn't then the next ranging would be off..

yes it's not as accurate as a Laser but is as a Mil Dot.
The old ARTs had a 15" stadia line above and below the cross hairs giving 30 inch of bracketing or 15 in of bracketing. The new ones do also, wih an additon of ranging lines in the lower corner.

The new ones are much better in construction and can be used on .50 Cals.
I think for te money that it's a great start for an inexperiennced shooter.
Other than learning windage hold off , it's all cross hair on.

As to the different Ballistic archs per caliber they now three wheels and each different cal can locked into the rings.
I have one on an 8mm mauser rebuild and there wasn 't a setting for that one but the scope comes with instrucion how to set that Arch...and it works fine on this 8mm.

Not to get in a pissing contest, I just want to pass on some very good news annd I'd like to see more use in the Army. I don't say bad things about any scope that is not a POS. and these are not. Blitzzz

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Boy, I thought I was a reasonably smart guy until I tried to read this. Maybe this is why I didn't go to medical school . . .

OK, time to try again . . .

heh heh

That's why I included the simulation link. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a moving picture should helps further. I have no financial gain from this, but I'd recommend giving the full version CD a shot. It really helps build that initial confidence (mental part). If you got second thoughts or need confirmation, shoot me a PM and I'll forward Rick and Major Econ's take on the simulation. Then you can decide for yourselves.

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Great stuff, thanks!!!

You're welcome. There are selfless professionals here and at the range giving their time, effort, and often, equipments, to forge my skills...gratis!. So it's only natural for me to give back/pass the buck at every opportunity. A match director at the range serves as a role model. He does his part in preserving the 2nd amendment by introducing marksmanship as a safe, interesting, and challenging activity to folks of all age, size, gender, etc.

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

well IMHOO....from a HP mindset, I'd say iron . I was taught that "optics don't make a poor marksman better, but worse." Optics magnify the target, as well as your visible wobble zone (movements). Unless the eye is already trained to accept a decent sight picture while maintaining perfect alignment via a good hold, all that movements can introduce errors and bad habit. Having said that....go with mildot/TMR. You can always use it as plain crosshair (duplex) and ignore the dots. Then, when you decide you want to play with holdovers, ranging, etc., it's there for you to use.

ok...withdrawing to my lane...

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

LR:

I agree with Rick, TR, and Peregrino. What they are trying to do is to focus you in (no pun please) some in terms of requirements. Unfortunately, most folks new to this don't know how to define their requirements.

Here is a question that may 'hep'.

What type of target will you be shooting for the majority of your shooting time?

If hunting -- what type of game and where in terms of geography.

If you intend on shooting competitively -- what sport or discipline?

If for pure enjoyment, what is the average size of the target you will shoot, at what average distance, and at what maximum distance? Give a SWAG on the size and distances.

Do you have a significant requirement to shoot targets that are moving?

You see, optics are a bit more specific than cartridges or rifle design in terms of use. There is no one size fits all with optics.

Give it your best and before folks starts saying "you forgot this or that" -- read the questions I asked and look at the implied requirements involved with each question.

Gene

[clapdoc]

Wow, sure is great to able to so much info.
If you are new to long range shooting i suggest that you look at a Leupold VX II scope.
Just remember, no high dollar scope can replace knowing your weapon and what it will do with the bullet you are shooting at that time.
You don't need a lot of knobs to turn and a computer when sighting at targets or an animal.
Go to a respected gun store or someone you trust and compare the scope mounts, your comfortable head position in relation to the reticule of the scope, then get zeroed and go to the range and shoot until you know that weapon like the back of your hand.
Just my .02 cents.

clapdoc sends

[Roguish Lawyer]

Thanks very much for your reply!

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

What type of target will you be shooting for the majority of your shooting time?

Range targets -- paper, tin cans, cactus, whatever we decide to shoot at.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

If hunting -- what type of game and where in terms of geography.

Principally deer I imagine, but I'd like as much flexibility as possible for North American hunting. My hunting to date (other than for rattlesnakes) has been at grocery stores and restaurants. Now fishing, that I have some experience with.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

If you intend on shooting competitively -- what sport or discipline?

I don't.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

If for pure enjoyment, what is the average size of the target you will shoot, at what average distance, and at what maximum distance? Give a SWAG on the size and distances.

I would imagine I would start learning at shorter distances like maybe 50-100 yards, shooting at 8 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper with bullseye targets on them, then work my way out as far as I can go. But I will do whatever my instructor tells me to do -- he is a SOTIC grad and I know nothing. I just want to learn for fun, not so much for real requirements I have.

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Do you have a significant requirement to shoot targets that are moving?

Not yet, but that sounds like something I would want to be able to do after I learn to hit stationary targets.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Got an e-mail from a QP suggesting that I get a cheaper scope to start with, then get something better once I have a better understanding of what I need. Sounds like good advice, what does everyone think?

[Peregrino]

PM inbound.

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

Horus Vision, perhaps? I'm not qualified to say it's the best, but it has some advantages and should be discussed.

Easier milling due to .2 mil spacing between hash marks. And unlike the traditional mildot reticle, you have a hash mark to place on the target if you are holding for both elevation and windage. Since there's no need to dial for elevation or windage, it's quicker.

I didn't find it to be too "busy" (which is the only criticism that I have heard about it.) There may be problems of which I'm not aware.

I don't think you can get a Horus reticle in a decent scope for less than $900, and at that price that scope is not the best bang for the buck. You can get Horus reticles put in the top of the line scopes, though.

http://horusvision.com/reticles.php

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Got an e-mail from a QP suggesting that I get a cheaper scope to start with, then get something better once I have a better understanding of what I need. Sounds like good advice, what does everyone think?

I'd take a Savage donor rifle, add a pre-threaded aftermarket barrel and replace the stock. I'd buy a used Bushnell Elite 4200. I'd rather spend the difference between a S&B and the Bushnell on ammo and training. If you feel the need to upgrade, you can sell the Bushnell easily on the 'net and get most of your money back. (This is actually what I'm planning to do, except for upgrading the scope. I personally can't justify a S&B for a rifle that's just going to be shooting steel.)

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Leozinho

I'd take a Savage donor rifle, add a pre-threaded aftermarket barrel and replace the stock. I'd buy a used Bushnell Elite 4200. I'd rather spend the difference between a S&B and the Bushnell on ammo and training. If you feel the need to upgrade, you can sell the Bushnell easily on the 'net and get most of your money back. (This is actually what I'm planning to do, except for upgrading the scope. I personally can't justify a S&B for a rifle that's just going to be shooting steel.)

I like the way you think! Both of those choices are underrated (which makes them good values). NTM - the average lay-person can probably delay the rifle tweaks for a while and concentrate on learning to shoot and educating themselves with some practical experience before investing in "bells and whistles".

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

I would imagine I would start learning at shorter distances like maybe 50-100 yards, shooting at 8 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper with bullseye targets on them, then work my way out as far as I can go. But I will do whatever my instructor tells me to do -- he is a SOTIC grad and I know nothing. I just want to learn for fun, not so much for real requirements I have. Not yet, but that sounds like something I would want to be able to do after I learn to hit stationary targets.

RL:

No sweat.

A good idea is to 'axed' your instructor what his target sizes and distances are and then his advice on an optic with a reticle pattern.

Peregrino, TS, TR, can assist you better than I can. Rick has already made his comments I believe.

My advice is this.

Avoid complex reticle patterns like the Horus Vision. The more lines and tick marks in your vision, the more you are distracted from seeing precision. I prefer one cross hair with maybe one or two tick marks to indicate distances or leads. That is it.

Get an optic with at least 10X for 600 yards and 20X for 1K yards. You can dope winds with a decent 20X optic if its 'resolution' is good (see Peregrino's comments). I do not advise you to go over 20X until you have learned your lessons.

Get and optic that has a side focus/parralax adjustment.

You won't need anything bigger than a 50MM objective lens for anything you want to do. I would go with a 35MM objective for daylight myself.

Take the comments of Sinister with total trust in terms of Leupold's that won't repeat, and the value of certain optics in 1000 yard competition which is much more demanding than combat purposes in terms of consistent accuracy. He has also been in combat so no nonsence here please.

Then read again the comments of Rick, Peregrino, and TR.

Remember that Rick has tested more top end optics than anyone here; Peregrino is an accomplished competitive rifleman as is Rick, and TR is a no-nonsense pragmatist with significant experience in the tactical side.

No, I haven't forgotten TS. He is a fantastic trainer and a great leader. So get out of him his conditions and standards please. Then you all can hook and jab some about this or that optic.

Gene

[mcarey]

Whatever optic you decide on, I would recommend www.swfa.com as a good place to start the hunt for a good price. Be sure to check their sample list http://www.samplelist.com/ (scratched tubes or demo models just as god as new and can be 30-80% off) they are good folks and carry most optics in stock. Usually can save you 10-70% on most retail MSRP's.