Help me price my AR15, looking to sell maybe.

[tinmanHRSO]

No it's not that boss, I think maybe I've been in country too long or something this time, I'm needing a trip CONUS to level my head. I've begun noticing my attitude lately and others I work with also.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by tinmanHRSO

So basically you guys are telling me that Noveske is full of it, I'm full of it. The upper reciever I paid almost $1400 for isn't real and I'm only imagining the performance I've been enjoying for the past 6 months is that it???? Or are you saying that it's not possible for someone like myself to actually make an intelligent post? Or maybe you're actually saying that if you guys haven't purchased something yourself then it must be a piece of shit? Give me a fucking brreak I got nothing to lie about, I don't work for Noveske, Im not just citing crap from an ad. I own one of these uppers and use it several times a week. I've owned more SBRs than I can count and this one by far beats them all hands down. I'm an instructor and security operator still in the business and I just tell it like it is. I really couldnt give a shit what you guys believe but don't just assume I'm a liar either.

It's sadly something which I've come to expect here after I made a post backing up another person's claim supporting PMags from MagPul which was quickly attacked and largely ignored. I stated my experiences with the Pmags and backed it up with other information from many sources and it was regarded in the same way, little respect, zeo trust, instead it was as if the post was instantly something to be fought against and disproven simply because it came from a poster with under 100 posts. The next time I visited the site however, suddenly a new post about Pmags was praising them using little more than a few of the same facts once given by myself and ignored. Yet this time it came from a poster with many posts, and so instantly, it was embraced as law.

Really, has the professionalism among you transformed into a country club attitude appearing as "Elitism?"

Since you edited your previous post to include additional comments, let me address a couple of them here. I don't have to explain myself to you, or anyone else who is a guest on our board, but will try to do this for the benefit of anyone who may be reading this thread, which is way off topic already.

We have no idea who you are or if you have any real experience at all. You might be some 14 year old Airsoft ninja wannabe, regardless of your post count. Anyone can register and start posting here. "Security professional", "operator" and "instructor" are nebulous terms and carry little real meaning. I have seen mall cops make those claims before, as well as people who take a trip overseas as a contractor and sit on a FOB for six months.

On the other hand, when a QP reports something, regardless of post count reports something, he is a vetted member of this board and his post carries some weight. I know what he has been through in training, and usually his rep, where he has served, and the combat experience he might have. If you think you are the first one to call us elitists, you do not know much about us.

Your observations are not normally going to carry the same weight as Lawless, for example, who we know has seen the elephant, or one of the QPs here. There are non-QPs on this board who have earned the right to express expert opinions and have their personal observations accepted on face value. Bill Harsey is a bonafide knife-making expert, as is swatsurgeon on trauma medicine. Both are staff members because of their expertise. OTOH, we have no idea who you really might be, and the value of your opinions is going to be rated accordingly. If Phil Seeberger or Doc Dater shows up here, and wants to talk cans, they would be given considerable latitude. If you were Jim Sullivan or Mark Westrom, your opinions on the M-16 would carry considerable weight, regardless of post count. You, on the other hand, are an unknown, and a rude one to boot.

Some of us agreed with part of your premise, but had some concerns about a couple of your claims. When you read these comments, you seem to have gotten pretty hostile, and unnecessarily.

I think you need to check the attitude and apologize before posting further. If you have a problem with that, move out and draw fire.

TR

[tinmanHRSO]

You're 100% correct sir on all points and I admit I was out of line. I apologize for the hostility, something I need to work on. There's a lot of issues right now that have nothing to do with this forum and I shouldn't have brought it into play here among friends. Again, I apologize.

You ever work with Ugandan TCNs? lol, I'll just leave it at that, lol.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by tinmanHRSO

You're 100% correct sir on all points and I admit I was out of line. I apologize for the hostility, something I need to work on. There's a lot of issues right now that have nothing to do with this forum and I shouldn't have brought it into play here among friends. Again, I apologize.

You ever work with Ugandan TCNs? lol, I'll just leave it at that, lol.

No, Africa was out of my AO, and I was happy with that situation.

TR

[MeC86]

For what its worth. The best 100 yrd group I've been able to get from my 10.5" Noveske was about 1.5". Which I am very happy with.

Also....we were using some 40 gr. frangible ammunition that was not functioning very well in my rifle (short stroking, not ejecting). I borrowed a KX3 from a friend and had zero issues after that with the same ammo. He claimed it would create a little more back pressure and correct the problem. Seemed to work on my gun.

It will create extra backpressure. Just not enough to make any noticable gains in the velocity of your projectile. As for your rifle, I would seriously consider a change in ammo. The centripetal force that the fast twist rate exerts on the bullet can cause your frangible ammo to come apart. Also its probably whats causing your functioning problems. Switch to a heavier ammo and Id bet you dollars to donuts that solves your problems. Your rifle is MP tested and designed to be used with NATO pressure 5.56x45 ammo. I highly doubt thats what you were shooting if it was 40 gr frangible. 223 rem and NATO 5.56 have very little difference with regards to the actual dimensions of the round, but they are two totally different animals when you look at their pressures. Change that ammo to something heavier and for gods sake dont run the frangible stuff through a suppressor. Also I dont know what ammo you have tested with regards to that rifle or what means you use to measure your groups. With that said you should try alot of different ammo in different weights to see what your rifle shoots best. The twist rate of all Noveske barrels are 1-7. It would be best for your rifle if you would shoot a heavier weight of ammo in between 55 and 77 grains at NATO pressure. Try these things and if it doesnt solve it let me know the specifics and Ill try to help you more. The KX3 is just a band aid for your gun malfunctioning and I would encourage you to find the base problem without it. Aaron

TR thanks for the defense.

[MeC86]

Lawless,

We recently were training at a shoot-house and the only ammo that was allowed was frangible, so our firearms guys picked up a few thousand rounds of it. As for duty use, we are currently using 55 gr Hornady and debating on a switch to 75 gr.

When I shot my best group it was 5 rounds with the 55 gr Hornady.

I hate the frangible stuff, it seems to give everyone's weapons problems and like you said, will come apart when exiting the barrel (resulting in a shower of sparks from the end of my gun)

Thanks for the input. Always appreciated.

Not a problem sir. TAP is decent ammo, I dont have enough experience to voice an authoritative opinion on it though. Before making a change in ammo standardization I would make sure to test alot of different ammo. Many people (.mil, LEO and Civies alike) put too much stock in reviews in gun rags and so called statements from those that have used it. I did some testing of my own before selecting an ammo for home defense. I shot drywall, glass, wood, carpet with the foam padding and wood behind it. I tested some of the TAP 75 NATO , and Black Hills 77 grain ammo that had the cannelure in it. Both of the afformentioned rounds mostly broke up or were seriously hampered by anything I tested it on. Anyone who has used either will tell you that they dont penetrate much of anything well. They do retain some weight though that could possibly be a danger to innocents on the other side of the wall you might have to shoot at. Weight retention is ideal in a combat scenario but not so much for the protective homeowner, and definetly not for any LEO that has to use their weapon. I would just make sure that the person in charge of procurement of your ammo does the proper testing of the ammo they intend to buy for your use. If they order ammo that overpenetrates it would be your *** in the wringer if a bullet fragment stuck a friendly not theirs. Stay safe. Aaron.

[tinmanHRSO]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

No, Africa was out off my AO, and I was happy with that situation.

TR

Im sorry I meant that the TCNs were from Uganda. I'm not working in Africa after all though, I don't remember if I had talked with you about that gig once before but the guy running the so-called PMC and was securing the Afri-Com contract ended up being full of shit.

He had a bogus website in the PMCs name but it was really just his networking angle. A way to gain contacts while looking for work with a PMC. He ended up signing on with EODT and is working at this time. I went with another company at another AO.

Ugandans are alot of the company's workforce. Along with Sri Lankans, Bosnians, and TCNs from several other countries. I'm working with the Ugandans currently and they're probably the worst ones to get stuck with, lol.

Complain, bitch and moan about everthing. Always writing you up with the accusation of "Abuse" I said "What? I never laid a finger on him!" But to them, if they say "You abused me" it means "You offended me" lol. Give me a break! Making them actually do their job offends them?

The Bosnians however, they're just like the Ghurkas, only more grateful, and a bit less robotic. They're just happy to have the job and most are running around with pieces of shrapnel or bullets in their bodies already so they know what it is to be "abused!" lol

[tinmanHRSO]

Originally Posted by Lawless

It will create extra backpressure. Just not enough to make any noticable gains in the velocity of your projectile. As for your rifle, I would seriously consider a change in ammo. The centripetal force that the fast twist rate exerts on the bullet can cause your frangible ammo to come apart. Also its probably whats causing your functioning problems. Switch to a heavier ammo and Id bet you dollars to donuts that solves your problems. Your rifle is MP tested and designed to be used with NATO pressure 5.56x45 ammo. I highly doubt thats what you were shooting if it was 40 gr frangible. 223 rem and NATO 5.56 have very little difference with regards to the actual dimensions of the round, but they are two totally different animals when you look at their pressures. Change that ammo to something heavier and for gods sake dont run the frangible stuff through a suppressor. Also I dont know what ammo you have tested with regards to that rifle or what means you use to measure your groups. With that said you should try alot of different ammo in different weights to see what your rifle shoots best. The twist rate of all Noveske barrels are 1-7. It would be best for your rifle if you would shoot a heavier weight of ammo in between 55 and 77 grains at NATO pressure. Try these things and if it doesnt solve it let me know the specifics and Ill try to help you more. The KX3 is just a band aid for your gun malfunctioning and I would encourage you to find the base problem without it. Aaron

TR thanks for the defense.

Some great info here. I never knew the risks of using frangible ammuntion through a suppressor before. I use a suppressor fairly often from Jet Suppressors, Although I've never used frangibles I appreciate knowing the risks in case, thanks. And btw, no hard feelings about earlier, I'm an asshole, but not a persistant one, lol.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

They sold them for more than $1,000.

That just means that Reed found buyers, it does not mean that the weapon is worth $1,000 outside that circle of KAC worshipers.

Personally, I would rather have an LMT M-4 with an SPR upper for the same money.

TR

I need your hook up. Where are you getting the SPR upper for that, much less the lower...

Originally Posted by tinmanHRSO

Some great info here. I never knew the risks of using frangible ammuntion through a suppressor before. I use a suppressor fairly often from Jet Suppressors, Although I've never used frangibles I appreciate knowing the risks in case, thanks. And btw, no hard feelings about earlier, I'm an asshole, but not a persistant one, lol.

No problem none taken. Is that Jet titanium. If so I wouldnt use it on anything but a bolt gun if I were you.

[tinmanHRSO]

Originally Posted by Lawless

No problem none taken. Is that Jet titanium. If so I wouldnt use it on anything but a bolt gun if I were you.

Why is that? I was part of their reseach and development team for several months before leaving. I never once had any problems with any of their systems. M4 SBRs, full auto suppressed, Suppressed G36, UMP, MP5, Plus several bolt guns but I was most impressed with how well Mike's suppressors worked on full autos without any failures, no explosive backbuild, no warping, and the titanium woked great as a heat sink for the barrel transferring barrel heat to the suppressor which cooled fast. Only thing was when firing through the full auto M4SBR, after 2 full mags firing cyclic, the suppressor would be white hot, we measured it at just over 1400 degrees once. One idiot made the mistake of leaning a hot can against the front fender of his car, lol. Melted right through it and started melting his front tire before he noticed it. Steel belt was exposed and everything lol.

here's a couple of pics from our testing at Jets on this page
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...=10252&page=54

Titanium is a very strong, light, hard metal. When heated It is still light and hard , but it doesnt resist erosion well in that state. Or as it is offficialy known as, Oxidatiion. Its fine on a bolt gun. Youll never get a can hot enough to make a bit of difference, or fire it fast enough for that matter. Youve said that you got the cans white hot. Id like to see a picture of the blast baffle of those cans. It probably looks pretty bad. The oxidation of titanium in extreme temperatures was known a long time ago. Its why NASA decided to use Inconel in the shuttle engine parts that would recieve the most heat. Over half of its parts are made of Inconel 718. Grade 1 untreated Titanium is good up to around 600 degrees. Grade 5 is good to 900. Keep in mind that one rapid mag dump will put your can into the 600-800 degrees farenheit range. Thats hardly white hot. Inconel 718 is a heat treated alloy composed of at least 50% nickel. It is rated to handle 1300 degrees F for extended periods of time without significant loss in yield strength, or weight loss due to oxidation. Inconel is what is used in many name brand silencers including KAC, Surefire, AAC, SWR, and Gem-tech just to name a few. Jet is 100 percent Ti and I dont even know what grade. Titanium has been proven it is not a satisfactory high temp metal. If you dont believe me just read the numbers.

The one to pay attention to is Tensile strength, or yield.

Inconel 718
http://www.hightempmetals.com/techda...nel718data.php

Pure Titanium, as it comes out of the ground.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=MTU021

Grade 5 Ti that is not heat treated.
http://www.supraalloys.com/astm_grades.htm

Grade 5 Ti that has been solution(heat) treated and aged.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=MTP642

[The Reaper]

NDD:

We are talking about the KAC M-4 pricing, which was high (around $1300, IIRC), when it first came out.

An SPR is a horse of a different color, though by the time you build an SPR upper with the barrel, receiver, rail system, sights, suppressor adaptor, bolt carrier group, charging handle, gas block, mount and optic, and drop a match trigger and A1 stock into the lower, you are into some serious coin. I had one that an AMU smith built, it wouldn't shoot, so I took it to my long gun 'smith and he built a great one. I got a deal on the scope and some other parts, but I agree, just the SPR upper, minus optics probably has well over a grand in it.

I have shot the SureFire shorty can on a SAW, burning a 200 round ammo pack through it as fast as I could in 6-9 round continuous bursts, as well as putting 15 full mags through an M-4 with the standard FA556 can in less than 5 minutes. In both cases, the suppressors had heated through red to a straw color, but the bullets were still flying to the same POI and there were no problems, before or after. The SureFire suppressor guru said that they had cut down one of their cans after 30,000 rounds and there was no appreciable wear on any of the surfaces and it all miked out to as new specs. IMHO, there are very few cans that will take that kind of abuse and keep running. Some require replacement of internal parts in as little as 1,000 rounds, and you can no longer buy rebuild kits, you have to send it to a licensed manufacturer for rebuild.

On a separate note, the suppressors do blow a lot of gas back through a standard M-16 type weapon with a direct gas impimgement operating system. I always use the Gas Buster charging handle, and it still blows oil and smoke through the receiver all over my shooting glasses in a long range session.

Agree about the Ti. Great metal for the right application, but it will not do everything well and does not like extreme heat.

TR