Weapons training advice

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by triQshot

At the Academy they are teaching us the Isosceles Shooting Stance and are getting away from the "Weaver Stance." The reason they give us...is that during the weaver stance your ribs are open to fire from a suspect. They tell us that the Isosceles stance is better because your standing broad shoulder and your chest is covered.
The problem I see is movement, with the Isosceles Stance, your legs are "locked" and your off balance to a point. With the Weaver stance movement is easier and your balanced on your front foot.

What do you guys perfer when shooting the old six shooter?

Isosceles stance is better because your standing broad shoulder and your chest is covered.

Your chest is covered??????????????? and what pray tell is standing broad shoulder have to do with shooting?

Next time you're out west let me know. It's quite obvious your instructors are in dire need of instruction......

TS

[triQshot]

Sorry TS, let me explain that a little bit better.

They want us standing broad shoulder because, they say "You have more protection standing broad shoulder and with your chest facing your suspect, that the vest will protect you more, than if your standing at an angle."

Like with the "Weaver" they are telling us that your ribs are more vunerable to fire, because the vest are weaker on the sides and that your underarms is not fully protected from a shot.

So they do not want us to stand at an angle for this reason, so they want us to shoot "Iso" with our chest pointed toward our foe. "For protection" in the event of a shoot out.


This what they are teaching everyone that comes to the academy, troopers, opossum police, marine patrol and basic police. By the way TS we are shooting your favorite pistol of all time, the glock. I'd perfer a sig or hk, but its what they are issuing the troopers, and as a reserve trooper thats what I'm expected to carry.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Bring the distance back down to 7 yards until your accuracy improves

Those sound like great ideas! I'll get to work on them.

Thank you.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by triQshot

Sorry TS, let me explain that a little bit better.

They want us standing broad shoulder because, they say "You have more protection standing broad shoulder and with your chest facing your suspect, that the vest will protect you more, than if your standing at an angle."

Like with the "Weaver" they are telling us that your ribs are more vunerable to fire, because the vest are weaker on the sides and that your underarms is not fully protected from a shot.

So they do not want us to stand at an angle for this reason, so they want us to shoot "Iso" with our chest pointed toward our foe. "For protection" in the event of a shoot out.


This what they are teaching everyone that comes to the academy, troopers, opossum police, marine patrol and basic police. By the way TS we are shooting your favorite pistol of all time, the glock. I'd perfer a sig or hk, but its what they are issuing the troopers, and as a reserve trooper thats what I'm expected to carry.

I would agree with some of what they said, but that’s not the reason to use the isosceles over the weaver.

When taught correctly the isosceles is a superior stance for all handguns and offensive movement techniques. When employed he isosceles is ambidextrous, meaning you can enter doorways from either direction without giving up the strong side shooting preference. (Anyone that tells you to switch arms to enter rooms is full of crap.)

The isosceles allows easy use of either eye as the weapon is drawn to the middle of the shooter and not to a strong side.

The isosceles allows for better recoil recovery therefore enhancing speed especially the double tap. The isosceles also is much easier to hold for longer periods of time as compared to the weaver.

I could go on and on…..

Next time you use the isosceles bend and lean forward just enough to be able to “step off” using your weak side foot. Do this each and every time you shoot. If you cannot “step off” from your shooting stance your stance is incorrect.

And, listen closely as I do want you, an officer of the law to win any and all engagements against bad men, forget about where you might get shot…… forget about what your vest will or will not do for you, first and foremost learn to “win the fight” period.
I personally loathe those that teach LEO’s to shoot only in a defensive manner. Let me tell you a secret, while I believe you (LEO’s) are issued a pistol for your own personal defense and are trained in LE defensive techniques tactics and procedures , the first time you "move forward" with a pistol in your hand you just went "offensive". (Read that last sentence five times.)

Now that I've told you that Federal, State and local LE “secret” do a google search and find me all the shooting academies, courses, ranges or ranches that teach “Offensive pistol shooting” techniques tactics or procedures. Please tell me how many “offensive” handgun courses you have attended?

I am not picking on you, I am picking on all those that send you into harms way armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous & with minimal weapons instruction, just enough to beat the bad man that only learned to shoot watching hollywood movies.

Save your money and take a course from Paul Howe or Dave Harrington. If you come to Phoenix and show me a badge I’ll take you out for a few hours, for free.

Team Sergeant

[triQshot]

TS, I've never attended firearms training before. Everything I know about shooting I learned from hunting with my dad. (Deer, Dove, Turkey, Rabbits, etc.)

The firearms training that they are giving us, is the only "taught" course I have ever been involved in.

I understand what your saying, and I'll do the step off's when I hit the range on my next off days.


Thanks for the info TS.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit.

learn new ways everyday to express things in succinct, effective manner.

Thanks for the education on “step off” TS. If I understand this correctly: Only lean forward so much that you can lift the weak-side leg without stumbling forward?

Since this topic is back running....

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

There are a bunch of things you can do

Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"?

My rumination:
The aggressive stance allows the force of the recoil not absorbed by only the wrist, but distributed to elbow, shoulder, hip, and ultimately the whole body weight. However, at the hand alone, the wrist(s) has to be able to handle the torque caused by the bullet exiting the barrel at a higher plane than the forearm. The muscle responsible for this should be the one extending along from the base of pinky towards the ulna. If this muscle is exercised aka. flexed regulary with a demanding resistance, it'd be less prone to get extended when the gun goes bang. So activities such as splitting woods, casting fishing-rod, badminton, kyudo etc. would help shooting?

Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by frostfire

learn new ways everyday to express things in succinct, effective manner.

Thanks for the education on “step off” TS. If I understand this correctly: Only lean forward so much that you can lift the weak-side leg without stumbling forward?

Since this topic is back running....


Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"?

My rumination:
The aggressive stance allows the force of the recoil not absorbed by only the wrist, but distributed to elbow, shoulder, hip, and ultimately the whole body weight. However, at the hand alone, the wrist(s) has to be able to handle the torque caused by the bullet exiting the barrel at a higher plane than the forearm. The muscle responsible for this should be the one extending along from the base of pinky towards the ulna. If this muscle is exercised aka. flexed regulary with a demanding resistance, it'd be less prone to get extended when the gun goes bang. So activities such as splitting woods, casting fishing-rod, badminton, kyudo etc. would help shooting?

Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

By "aggressive" stance I take you probably mean "fighting" stance. You see, unlike those thousands of civilian "defensive instructors" we have teaching in the United States we in the military know that in a two way fight you need to be able to "move" and not just stand in one place when engaged.
In the military we also benefit from taking the fight to the bad guy and not waiting for him to bring it to us.

Again, if the stance you use does not allow you to easily step off from it then you never learned a proper fighting stance. Learning to shoot and learning to fight with a weapon are apples and oranges.

TS

[kgoerz]

To expand on what TS just said.
Once you master the basics, hitting the kill zone consistently at 25 Meters, Magazine exchanges, Magazine exchanges, immediate action drills....etc.
Shooting should no longer be a stationary exercise for you. Unless your already behind cover you need to be moving to cover. Or just moving while shooting, reloading, immediate action, magazine exchange.....etc.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by frostfire

Gene Econ Sir, the advice you gave was on grip. Does grip exercise also cover wrist strengthening as to prevent "limp-wristing"? Disclaimer: I'm just an ordinary Joe with extreme interest in deconstructing things, breaking it apart to elements to be worked on individually with any relevant boundary conditions, then putting them back together to see if it results in improvement. If not, back to the drawing board. Anyone, feel free to tear it apart, or as I always believe: My way, or the better way.

Dave:

Yes, squashing a racket ball for a few hours a day will strengthen your wrist and will probably develop an immense amount of force after months of squashing said racket ball or squashing device used for folks who are nervous.

You can do wrist curls, reverse curls, monkey curls, et al. Dead lifting is also an incredible exercise for developing a vice like grip.

Guys put helmets over the barrels of their M-4's and hold for several sets of increasing seconds. Guys tie ten and fifteen pound wieghts to their pistols and practice their holds to get strength.

Instead of all that how about doing this. Do a few sets of wrist and reverse curls when you hit the gym. Do them three times a week with your exercise and increase the weight regularly. Fifteen or twenty reps of five or six sets is just fine.

Now, that being said -- it is far more important for you to train your finger to move when your eyes see a 'good enough' sight picture for your particular purpose. You do this by conditioning your mind to trust your eyes and finger. That is about 95% of the equation.

I deal with a system that insists guys square off to an enemy before shooting. Chest plate towards enemy. It is absurd as most guys have only an insticntual idea where the enemy is, how many enemy are shooting at him, or at what angles to his body armor. And they can't move too well in the issued body armor.

The result is obvious -- if your first decision is based on squaring off to a threat that you can't see then you will delay your action by seconds. Thats why I am not a pusher of squaring off to a threat. Rather I emphasize fast and very precise shots -- no matter one's position.

You can hold a pistol firm enough. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. Then train yourself to trust your training.

Gene

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

I emphasize fast and very precise shots -- no matter one's position.

You can hold a pistol firm enough. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. Then train yourself to trust your training.

Gene

Noted and ingrained. As always, thank you for your time and QUALITY instructions, Sir. Free all-you-can-drink-beer-in-3-hours always applies to you and Rick in my AO.