What do you all think of U.S.M.A and R.O.T.C officers?

[Silent Storm151]

Hello everyone, the topic is pretty self explanatory, the reason I ask is because I am currently a candidate for West Point, as well as a 4 year A.R.O.T.C scholarship winner, my main goal is to be the best officer possible. It should be noted that this topic is open to anybody with any sort of military experience. While I have been researching what makes a good officer, I want to know what you all think.

Thanks.

[longrange1947]

The man NOT the school makes the officer.

Go the route that you feel comfortable with and don't worry about which will make you a better officer. All will give you the basic tools. If you go the route you think others want then you will not be comfortable and you will not learn properly.

The one thing to do though, is look at yourself and see if you need discipline, if you need the discipline then go West Point. IF you can discipline yourself, then go whatever route is your choice.

The old ring knocker, you must be a Point Grad to be any good and make General is no longer even close to true. There are West Point Grads that do not make it to LTC and there are OCS grads that were former enlisted that wear two and three stars.

My two cents, I am sure more will stop by and add to this, just remember that it is your life and we can only point the different routes and give advise based on OUR experience and life.

You have to live your life and gain your experiences. Otherwise the trip is not worth it.

[PSYOP Rob]

The man NOT the school makes the officer.

That right there is the gospel truth! In the big world nobody cares how you got your commission, they will care about what you do with it once its yours. You want to go to West Point because of its storied tradition and start living a military life right now, have at it. If you want to go to San Diego State because they have hot chicks and its near the beach, rock on. Once they pin your bars on, then you are officially on the clock and you get judged by what you bring to the party, and it better be good.

[Kyobanim]

FWIW,

I've been out a long while but with keeping in mind; what I remember of the officers I served under, I will offer this piece of advice: Just because you went to college and are an officer doesn't mean you know everything. Listen to your troops. They will help make you a better officer.

[Penn]

Long term, 10 years out, the credentials of a top tier school opens many doors. As an employer, if I have the pleasure of choosing btw two remarkable individuals, the one from a service academy has the opportunity enhanced. While the other school may be important, West Point instills a unique set of skills that in comparison are not matched by other school's ROTC programs.

[PSYOP Rob]

Originally Posted by Penn

Long term, 10 years out, the credentials of a top tier school opens many doors. As an employer, if I have the pleasure of choosing btw two remarkable individuals, the one from a service academy has the opportunity enhanced. While the other school may be important, West Point instills a unique set of skills that in comparison are not matched by other school's ROTC programs.

And that may be one of the true benefits of going to an Academy, employers like the sound of it.
But if you are as stated earlier only concerned with being the best officer possible, its what you do after school is out that matters. Me, I'd go for a school with excellent academics, a kickass sports program, and hot chicks, somewhere warm, but thats just me. Enjoy your time in college, once its over big green will send you someplace where ticks and red cockaded woodpeckers will outnumber the sorority girls 1,000,000 to 1

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by Penn

Long term, 10 years out, the credentials of a top tier school opens many doors. As an employer, if I have the pleasure of choosing btw two remarkable individuals, the one from a service academy has the opportunity enhanced. While the other school may be important, West Point instills a unique set of skills that in comparison are not matched by other school's ROTC programs.

Penn:

So, I guess I am out of luck if I need a job at your establishment.

I turned down USMAPS because we had a war going on, and I didn't want to wait 4 years to get into it!

[RTK]

I'm an ROTC product, which, coupled with a quarter, will get me a refill at 7-11. After you raise your right hand the first time, it doesn't matter.

COL Moroney put it best a while back, IMHO:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...cer#post180380

"I was a soldier that happened to be an officer"

I think once you step outside of that mindset, then you're destined for failure. We officers are appointed because of the path we took - that's it.

This isn't a "me," "I," or "my" industry. This is all about the team. Words like "we" and "us" should surround any accomplishments.

I remember a quote from football coach Paul "Bear" Bryant that epitomizes leadership in my mind:

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, then we did it. If anything goes really good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games."

We do nothing by ourselves and accomplish nothing without our NCOs and Soldiers. Those that remember that fact do quite well. Those that believe their commissioning paperwork was a gift from God that gave them this mysterious "greater-than-everyone" leadership ability fail quickly. Just because an "O" precedes your paygrade does not entitle you to respect, honor, or extraordinary ability.

All that is earned and learned through the close interactions with stellar non-commissioned officers who teach you what right looks like.

If you remember that, it doesn't matter where you go to school.

[swpa19]

Every previous post pretty much covers it. Ive worked with officers from all three avenues. Good, Bad and Indifferent. The consensus of the board is correct. Its the individual. The CG of SF Command is an R.O.T.C. grad of a small college (then) University(now). A very, very large 5th Gp. Major (retired as a Ltc) told me once. "Some commanders DEMAND respect, Others COMMAND it". Its strictly up to you and your efforts to decide which category you will fall under. Good Luck.

[Silent Storm151]

Thanks again everyone, I have some serious thinking to do regarding the next four years. Both options have their pro's and con's. no matter what path I chose, I will always respect and listen to those under me. I have learned much today

Thanks and Stay Safe,
TJ

[warrottjr]

Sign over a 5th Group ODA Team Leader's desk, welcoming the new captain:

"Shut up, Sir! We'll throw you a pen when we want you to sign something."

I am an ROTC product with prior enlisted service, which is the only way to go in my book, but it does have it's unique challenges.

First of all, you skip college for a few years until you get some experience and the G.I. Bill under your belt.

Screw the scholarship, because you won't be majoring in military science; you'll be learning how to make a living as a civilian.

Why? Because only the top X% of ROTC grads get offered an RA career appointment. The rest only get an introductory tour, mostly taken up by OBC and then you're on your own to hold down a job, raise a family, and spend every spare moment at the reserve center reminding yourself why you didn't want a full time job in a peacetime Army.

I know that particular glamour is lost due to 9/11, but some day, this war will be over, because they always come to an end, if we all do our jobs right.

Which brings me to an important point wrapped back into my introductory quote: You don't have to do too much besides what your senior NCO and your immedate CO tell you.

America has the finest NCO corps in the world. What makes them unique is that they are trained to take command, which they will do, and all you have to do is stay out of their way.

It's "Sergeant's Business," and if you want in: Earn your spurs.

[Silent Storm151]

Thanks Sir, that is another approach I suppose.

Stay Safe,

TJ

[warrottjr]

I've got just a few more words about ROTC: SMP & CTLT.

These are awesome programs.

The Simultaneous Membership Program places ROTC cadets in an officer slot in a real reserve unit. Mine was XO of an OSUT Armored Cavalry troop. Your PMOS is still 09R20 and you still get paid as an E-5, but you get to work a real officer job (if that's not an oxymoron!)

The Cadet Leadership Training Program is a similar experience, but it only lasts for two weeks during the summer before you graduate. Mine was as an assistant leader in a Combat Engineer platoon. The things I saw these men do kept me in awe.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is: Don't get hung up on the scholarship.

[Silent Storm151]

I hear what your saying sir and I thank you for your input, the only issue is that the scholarship is the only way i can go to college being that the school is 40K a year, so I have to take it, I will look into the ROTC SMP program however, because that sounds like it could be the best of both worlds.

Stay Safe,
TJ

[sleepyhead4]

Originally Posted by warrottjr

Sign over a 5th Group ODA Team Leader's desk, welcoming the new captain:

"Shut up, Sir! We'll throw you a pen when we want you to sign something."

I am an ROTC product with prior enlisted service, which is the only way to go in my book, but it does have it's unique challenges.

First of all, you skip college for a few years until you get some experience and the G.I. Bill under your belt.

Screw the scholarship, because you won't be majoring in military science; you'll be learning how to make a living as a civilian.

Why? Because only the top X% of ROTC grads get offered an RA career appointment. The rest only get an introductory tour, mostly taken up by OBC and then you're on your own to hold down a job, raise a family, and spend every spare moment at the reserve center reminding yourself why you didn't want a full time job in a peacetime Army.

I know that particular glamour is lost due to 9/11, but some day, this war will be over, because they always come to an end, if we all do our jobs right.

Which brings me to an important point wrapped back into my introductory quote: You don't have to do too much besides what your senior NCO and your immedate CO tell you.

America has the finest NCO corps in the world. What makes them unique is that they are trained to take command, which they will do, and all you have to do is stay out of their way.

It's "Sergeant's Business," and if you want in: Earn your spurs.

With all due respect, I disagree with this statement as a whole, and you shouldn't perpetuate the whole "we don't need you" attitude. It's counterproductive to team cohesion as well as mentoring a young leader. Yes, NCO's are the backbones of our army because they are, by far, the finest in the world. They can definitely run the army if they were given the responsibilities. However, an NCO telling an officer (whether he is a PL, a CO, or an SF TL) to get out of his way is not helping to develop that young leader or helping the unit. That's the type of attitude that disheartens a young officer and makes him a micromanaging BN CDR in the future.

I am speaking from personal experience from having been an infantry PL and currently an SF TL. My first PSG did not tell me to get out of "his" office because I wasn't needed. He did not tell me to "shut up" and just sign paperwork for the PLT. From day one, my PSG mentored me to be a leader. He put me in positions where I had to learn by making decisions, sometimes the wrong decisions. But at no point during our service together did he ever make me feel like I wasn't part of the PLT. Fast forward 3+ years. My current Team Sergeant did not tell me to wait out in the hall or to get out of his way. From day one, I was his team member, his Team Leader. Like my infantry PSG, my team sergeant took the role as my mentor while still allowing me to lead. My past and present relationships with my NCO's have continuously affirmed my belief that NCO's are the best things to ever happen to our military. So by telling this impressionable cadet-to-be that it's "sergeant's business," you're actually hindering him from having the productive relationship with his NCO's and soldiers that he deserves and needs for his own development.

Warrottjr, I respect your opinion, but I couldn't just standby and let him believe that NCO's don't appreciate, need, or want officers around.