Barry Bonds Hits 754

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

No love for Biggio? I agree about Ripken.

On Bonds - he's not a nice guy. But then he's not paid to be nice. Look at the expectations he came in under. Godfather Willie Mays. Father Bobby. McCovey in there too. Imagine the pressure.

A lot of them cheat. Sosa corked his bat. Cobb sharpened his spikes. You guys don't think The Babe would have juiced?

Mantle wasn't a saint either.

As for the asterisk - it was shit when they did it to Maris. He didn't decide how long the season would be. I don't care if they do it to Bonds or not. He has played within the system well enough that they haven't booted him.

IF they want to kick him out, they should do it. If they want to let him play, it should stand clean.

They are baseball players, not moral not role models.

Having said that, I would take Ripken or Biggio over any of the "cheaters". You gotta love any guy that will lead the league in HBP and games played.

Agreed on all points. I'd like to see any big name hitters nowadays that HAVEN'T used performance enhancers some time in their career.

IMO it's the MLB's fault for not testing their players. Health risks associated with steroids are (and have been) known for a long time now, and it's not like they didn't know what was going on. Their blind eye to steroids has been very irresponsible IMO, if for no other reason that their attitude encouraged their use and put many players' health at risk.

All that said, Bonds has a terrible attitude towards the media and often towards the public in general, and has mostly that to blame for the situation he has found himself in. If there is to be an asterisk next to his career record, let it read that he played in an era in baseball where performance enhancers were the rule and not the exception.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Achilles

If there is to be an asterisk next to his career record, let it read that he played in an era in baseball where performance enhancers were the rule and not the exception.

Look at Ripken.

Do you think he juiced?

Better a long term, consistent, reliable, quality player than a flash in the pan. Like McGuire. Or an asshole, like Bonds.

And who is to say that Bonds' success was due to steroids just that one season? Maybe his norm is well below 30 HRs?

QRQ30, steroids don't give you a better average, but if combined with the right training regimen, they will definitely make the balls you hit fly further.

TR

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Look at Ripken.

Do you think he juiced?

Better a long term, consistent, reliable, quality player than a flash in the pan. Like McGuire. Or an asshole, like Bonds.

And who is to say that Bonds' success was due to steroids just that one season? Maybe his norm is well below 30 HRs?

QRQ30, steroids don't give you a better average, but if combined with the right training regimen, they will definitely make the balls you hit fly further.

TR

I don't think Ripken juiced. History will remember him as a great baseball player and a great guy. Bonds will only be remembered as the former, not the latter.

As for whether Bonds would be hitting a lot of home runs without juice, it's all conjecture. He's still hitting them now and there's no way he's been able to get away with juicing for quite some time. IMO he would have broken the record (though not the single season) regardless of steroid abuse or not. The MSM blowing this issue out of proportion is (in my eyes) a direct reaction to how Bonds acts and conducts himself at press conferences. He has blown any chance of preserving a positive image in the MSM for the rest of his career.

Pleasure to be talking to y'all again.

[brandonm]

Originally Posted by x-factor

For a long time I gave Bonds the benefit of the doubt. The guy has incredible genetics and a lifetime of developing a great swing...why couldn't he (given unlimited access to every modern physical training method) have put on the muscle and hit a ton of HRs? Since then though, the evidence that has surfaced has been pretty undeniable.

Most major league players don't find their power until their fourth or fifth year. From Bonds' fifth season (1990) to the year before he hit 73 (2000) he averaged 37 HRs a year and won 3 MVPs (to say nothing of all his other stats). The guy was a Hall of Famer without the steroids.

Really the 73 HR season was the only aberration. After that he went back to hitting in the 40s which (along with his other numbers) is more or less consistent with his career. The steroids will probably end up costing him longevity (he missed almost the entire 2005 season and he's been injury prone ever since) because they're notoriously hard on joints. Even if he hadn't had the 73HR season he probably would have broken Aaron's record anyway, either this season or the next.

Basically the guy sacrificed his reputation as the best slugger of his generation for one thing: the single season HR record.

Pure arrogance.

So what's the undeniable proof?

[hoot72]

I dont understand why the San Francisco fans are so excited with him breaking the record...I would be embarrassed he is still playing in the MLB and to be associated with him in my team..

Edit: I think there is a growing fustration inside of me that he probably has taken steroids but as some of you have correctly pointed out, he has neither been charged or found guilty of anything so far. But I think there have been someone people associated to him in the past who have been caught with performance enhancing drugs so that was why I was a wee bit fustrated and upset he broke the record....

Then again, I'm a mariners fan so.....

[QRQ 30]

Originally Posted by hoot72

I dont understand why the SF fans are so excited with him breaking the record...I would be embarrassed he is still playing in the MLB and to be associated with him in my team..

Has he been tried and convicted?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by hoot72

I dont understand why the SF fans are so excited with him breaking the record...I would be embarrassed he is still playing in the MLB and to be associated with him in my team..

On a board like this you should really put "San Fran" fans not "SF"

Pete

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

Has he been tried and convicted?

Negative. Then again, neither has OJ.

[vsvo]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

No love for Biggio? I agree about Ripken.

On Bonds - he's not a nice guy. But then he's not paid to be nice. Look at the expectations he came in under. Godfather Willie Mays. Father Bobby. McCovey in there too. Imagine the pressure.

A lot of them cheat. Sosa corked his bat. Cobb sharpened his spikes. You guys don't think The Babe would have juiced?

Mantle wasn't a saint either.

As for the asterisk - it was shit when they did it to Maris. He didn't decide how long the season would be. I don't care if they do it to Bonds or not. He has played within the system well enough that they haven't booted him.

IF they want to kick him out, they should do it. If they want to let him play, it should stand clean.

They are baseball players, not moral not role models.

Having said that, I would take Ripken or Biggio over any of the "cheaters". You gotta love any guy that will lead the league in HBP and games played.

I agree with most of your points, but his constant whining about the pressure is the main reason I don't like Bonds. I can only imagine the pressure, but I don't give him a pass for it. Did his father or godfather force him to pick up a bat and glove?

I vividly remember as a kid reading an article in Sports Illustrated touting the then high-schooler Bonds as the next great phenom. There was a photo of his grinning, rail-thin, smaller-hat-size ass standing in front of the brand-new BMW M3 his dad gave him for his 16th birthday. He knew exactly what he was getting into when he went into baseball. And it appears it wasn't always all bad.

Now he hates the media because he remembers how shabbily they treated his dad. And he constantly whines in public about how tough it is to be Barry. Is that why he has a cordoned-off area in the clubhouse all to himself, where his teammates aren't even allowed? As noted, he has legitimate skills and was well on his way towards a superstar career. So why did he start juicing? To hit the long ball farther? Or to help himself bear the crushing weight of lofty expectations? If it's all so unbearable, then take your glove, your bat, your hat and go home.

[QRQ 30]

Originally Posted by mdb23

Negative. Then again, neither has OJ.

U are in slight error. Bonds has not even been charged, let alone tried . OJ was.

I love the term :cheater". I picked up on this more on the recent NASCAR events but applies here IMO. People crying "Foul" "Cheater, crook" etc may go outside, J-walk to their cars, pull out of a no-parking zone, then get on the highway with cell phone in one ear and MP3 in the other and push the speed limit as far as they think they can. They may even be text messaging at the same time. My point is that competitors push to what they see as the limit and sometimes get caught, as do we.

In the past people took things which weren't so illegal then such as pain killers and amphetamines. I remember medics carrying around bottles of Sarvon before it became a prescription drug. Maybe we can go back several decades and start disqualifying. Mantle took various drugs for his bone spurs. It was said he looked like a mummy under hos uniform.

Speaking of AARON, IIRC he had a security detail on account of Death Threats.

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

U are in slight error. Bonds has not even been charged, let alone tried . OJ was.

Ahhhh, but that was not the question. You asked if Bonds had been tried and convicted, to which I replied he has not. To be technically correct, neither has OJ (the "and" in there requires that both events had occurred).

Had the question been "has he been tried or convicted, then you would be correct, as OJ has been tried, but not convicted........

Semantics? Yes...... but that's all I have at this point.

I agree with the rest of your post Sir, though I would add that the fact that many people push the envelope by cheating on their taxes, wives, husbands, doing drugs, speeding, etc., does not mean that I have to like them or excuse their actions.

I don't like Bonds. Never will. Just a personal preference, as I see his obvious use of performance enhancing drugs as insulting to the game that I have a near religious devotion to. Perhaps that makes me -odd-, but it's an odd I can live with.

Anyway, I've added all that I have to offer. You gentlemen take care and be safe.

[kgoerz]

I think most of the frustration is how MLB handles the problem. Saying they are against juicing. Then not making an honest effort to stop it. Fans are insulted. What exactly is the MLB policy? Is it in the players contracts? There are a lot of reasons not to like drug testing. There is only one reason a person go's out of his way. Or makes an effort to block it.
I know they cant test a player when they want. As much as they want. For whatever drugs they want. I know the punishment for getting caught isnt enough to make them stop.
These pro players already in the show doing it is one thing. The younger kids forced to do it because the other guy is. Thats got to suck. It has nothing to do with winning or making the Majors. Their chances of being a success in life are on the line. The are juicing for that scholarship, money. Forced is the right word here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by vsvo

I agree with most of your points, but his constant whining about the pressure is the main reason I don't like Bonds. I can only imagine the pressure, but I don't give him a pass for it. Did his father or godfather force him to pick up a bat and glove?

I vividly remember as a kid reading an article in Sports Illustrated touting the then high-schooler Bonds as the next great phenom. There was a photo of his grinning, rail-thin, smaller-hat-size ass standing in front of the brand-new BMW M3 his dad gave him for his 16th birthday. He knew exactly what he was getting into when he went into baseball. And it appears it wasn't always all bad.

Now he hates the media because he remembers how shabbily they treated his dad. And he constantly whines in public about how tough it is to be Barry. Is that why he has a cordoned-off area in the clubhouse all to himself, where his teammates aren't even allowed? As noted, he has legitimate skills and was well on his way towards a superstar career. So why did he start juicing? To hit the long ball farther? Or to help himself bear the crushing weight of lofty expectations? If it's all so unbearable, then take your glove, your bat, your hat and go home.

Yes they did make him pick up a bat. And his father made him move to the other side of the plate about age five.

I don't give a shit how he treats the press. I don't like the press and I know exactly how it feels to have someone that has never done and can never do what I do criticize my every move.

I don't particularly care for the guy, but he is what he is - which will very soon be the greatest home run hitter of all time.

As for Ripken, I am not accusing him of anything, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that he had taken a little something on a really bad day. And I wouldn't blame him a bit.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

I think most of the frustration is how MLB handles the problem. Saying they are against juicing. Then not making an honest effort to stop it. Fans are insulted. What exactly is the MLB policy? Is it in the players contracts? There are a lot of reasons not to like drug testing. There is only one reason a person go's out of his way. Or makes an effort to block it.
I know they cant test a player when they want. As much as they want. For whatever drugs they want. I know the punishment for getting caught isnt enough to make them stop.
These pro players already in the show doing it is one thing. The younger kids forced to do it because the other guy is. Thats got to suck. It has nothing to do with winning or making the Majors. Their chances of being a success in life are on the line. The are juicing for that scholarship, money. Forced is the right word here.

Roger,

That's what I was saying. The MLB is encouraging steroid use through lax policy, and in doing so, effectively reduce the life expectancy and increase health risks of their own players. I can't blame the players, really. The "man in the arena" quote by Theodore Roosevelt comes to mind when I second guess an athlete's actions like the MSM does (not unlike how they treat the military).

If anyone is to blame it's the MLB's policy makers.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Pleasure to be talking to y'all again.

Good to see you back here!