06-24-2007, 10:18
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#31
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lacey Washington
Posts: 737
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HOLLiS
I thought about powder, It could be possible he ran out of powder before he ran out of cases and refilled the powder measure with a pistol powder. Depending on how many empty cases he had left, that could be why the defective rounds were very low in number. I'll look at those pictures again, but I really would like to have parts in hand. Hollis
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Hollis:
Yes -- look at how the bottom of the bolt carriers were blown out. Given the bottoms blown out of each bolt -- could this have happened from an out of battery firing? I can't see how that much gas could get into the bolt carrier unless it went through the gas system itself.
Your opinion?
Gene
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Gene Econ is offline
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06-24-2007, 10:58
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#32
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gene Econ
Am still curious as to why the range officer didn't cease firing when the first rifle blew. That one leads me to question the competency of the outfit in question.
Gene
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As I understand it now firing was stopped. Everyone ooh'd and aaah'd over the first Kaboom. But it was dismissed as a freak accident, which has never happened to us in the past so the thinking from the guys on the range at the time was "that our luck ran out and we had our freak accident".
However when number 2 went; all training ammo was pulled from the range and only issued duty ammo was shot.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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06-24-2007, 11:04
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#33
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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The blown out gas cylinders and destroyed case heads indicate to me that Gene is exactly on track. Way too much gas under far too much pressure got into the system all at once, and could not get out before the bullet movement out of the barrel or the unlocking of the bolt relieved the pressure. Remember that the bullet had to make it past the gas port for the gas to reach the gas cylinder area of the bolt.
I have seen revolvers do this and KB with extremely light loads. The theory was that the powder exploded rather than burned. I do not think this is the case here.
IMHO, heavy bullets or weak cases would not produce the severe destruction that you have with these weapons.
So, we are back to the powder.
What is the case capacity of the Federal .223?
What degree of fill would the claimed load produce?
How much Varget can you fit into the Federal cases?
What other powders are present in the reloading area? Especially pistol reloading powder.
Who has access to the reloading area?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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06-24-2007, 11:08
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#34
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet
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Gene,
The case looks like it failed at the head. From old reading, so it may not be very correct anymore, at the High pressures ignition the brass become plastic in characteristic and flows. The higher the pressure the more molten it becomes. When pressure is relieved it goes back to the normal characteristic of brass. This allows the case to create a gas seal with the chamber.
Improper head spacing, does not allow for the case to be adequately supported. The case looks as though it blew out from the base. I think we can obviously say, excessive pressures, but why?
In the M4 full auto config and in full auto mode (same with AKs) When the bolt goes to battery it trips the hammer release. In semi auto this does not happen. Normally a person cannot release the trigger and fire again in the time it takes the bolt to complete the cycle. Semi auto Uzis has a firing pin catch that prevents the firing pin from firing, unless the bolt is in battery. (prevents slam fires and full auto mode).
A guy asked me about bump firing a AK. I told him, "I would not recommend it." for the reason stated above.
Now look at the roll the extractor has, on stripping the round from the magazine, the head of the round is matched to the bolt face and locks into the extractor. Also the case is being aligned with the chamber. I am not sure, if the holding of the case by the extractor would be sufficient to allow enough pressure from the firing pin to ignite the primer when the bolt is not completely in battery.
I would, maybe, suggest on the remaining ammo, check them with a case gauge if it is possible. It still may not show any unusual problems for the reason I mention below.
The other problem with once fired brass, It may been reloaded once already. Picking up range brass does not always insure the same brass is being picked up, a few remnants for a previous shoot may have been left behind. Those two cases could have been reloaded previously, maybe one of those loaders who uses max load plus 20%, the cases could been faulty to begin with. Remember case separation in the old 303 Brits. I would think head separation would have happened in that was the situation.
Did Joe measure the the case length that ruptured?
On the gas system, I don't think it was involved. The gas tube would have probably ruptured with that amount of pressue.
Best,
Hollis
I am building a receiver today, I will play around with my AR and some "dummies" to see what I can determine when I take a break.
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HOLLiS is offline
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06-24-2007, 11:20
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#35
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet
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Gene,
I am playing with a bolt on a AR, I think TR understanding is much better than mine. The firing pin needs the bolt to be Almost completely rotated to be long enough to touch the primer.
Hollis.
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HOLLiS is offline
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07-05-2007, 17:42
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#36
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
However when number 2 went; all training ammo was pulled from the range and only issued duty ammo was shot.
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Joe:
Has anyone come to any conclusions abpit these rifles yet?
Thank you
Gene
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Gene Econ is offline
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07-06-2007, 03:08
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#37
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gene Econ
Joe:
Has anyone come to any conclusions abpit these rifles yet?
Thank you
Gene
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Gene,
Not yet.... Feet are dragging at this point. Our independent reloader is supposed to come in next week to test some more bullets. I guess with all of our upcoming biker rally's this has been put on a slow burner and I'm not in a position to light any fires. 
I will up date you when I know something.
Joe
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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08-10-2007, 04:38
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#38
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Update
We recieved the Bushmaster back a few days ago.
Bushmaster didn't really say much other than "here you go" They replaced the Bolt, Bolt Carrier Group, charging handle, lower reciever and barrel.
We are currently trying to get a hold of them to see if they were able to find the cause but I'm getting the felling that they didn't investigate the issue they just fixed the rifle and moved on.
Either way kudos to them for there customer service.
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck, "The Law"
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Smokin Joe is offline
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08-10-2007, 07:27
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#39
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Quiet Professional
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Well that is a decent thing to do.
Kudos to BM. Wonder what Colt will do? 
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-15-2007, 00:08
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#40
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BANNED USER
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,189
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Well that is a decent thing to do.
Kudos to BM. Wonder what Colt will do?
TR |
Colt ?? You mean people still purchase those ? 
Last edited by 82ndtrooper; 08-15-2007 at 03:26.
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