Chaplain fired for prayer in Jesus' name

[Spartan359]

Interesting. In the four years I spent on the Kitty Hawk not once was there a complaint against the Chaplins prayers. Everynight before lights out he would come on the 1MC and say a prayer. "In Jesus name we pray" was used often if I'm not mistaken.

[Sweetbriar]

I followed Klingenschmitt's story for awhile and really haven't had any sympathy for him, although I actually am a Bible believing Jesus-praying freak myself. My opinion is formed from observing Navy command culture as well as Christian lay leadership in the Navy.

Klingenschmitt never understood his mission as servant to all, regardless of their particular view of faith. He was offended that access to the position of chaplain required a far more circumspect attitude than he seems to be remotely capable of. The instant he took his complaints outside his command chain he made a major league career error, and taking it to the media put him in full bore rebellion.

In this case, offense and rebellion are also theological/spiritual terms. The guy is full of himself. If you want to give your life away so that others might know the love of God, then honor them that have authority over you, be very modest in your view of yourself, and be diligent to buy up every opportunity (pay the price required). It doesn't matter if you are on a mission field in the heart of Islam, the deck of a ship, or the breakroom.

The Navy is better off without him and I hope he didn't cause too much damage on the way out. IMO.

[Guy]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Okay, look-perhaps my response was a little harsh and out of line. I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank). The bottom line with me, and perhaps it is only me, that everyone is a soldier first and a "whatever" next and as soldiers they have sworn oaths to perform as such. For some reason, some, not all, feel that they are civilians in uniform and the military rules just don't make sense or fit their chosen path so they conform to whatever "higher calling or standard" that they see fit. Well that never washed with me. I do not wish to belabor the point, I am too damn old to change my point of view on this, and you are welcome to your point of view or position. I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.

Stay safe.

Makes me wonder what 3 yrs., and 33 posts ago might turn up.

Prayer -

Christian, Hewbrew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddha, US Chaplains serve to give support and comfort to Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. I've heard Chaplains call for God's blessing by calling him Father, Lord, Allah, Jesus, Elohim, and Jehovah.

I've heard Chaplains give entire talks/sermons in native languages, bless the sacrament, perform baptisms, marriages, last rites and funeral services.

I beleive a soldier need not have to choose between being a soldier or a follower of his faith, our enemies curtainly do not. An American serviceman is capable of doing both.

Is one's faith only practiced in chapels, temples and such? If it is, then we are hipocrites. Are we not encouraged to open our hearts, "speak as one man speaketh with another" while talking in suplication with our Father in Heaven? Must we only read, pre-prepared prayers, reviewed by committee, or can we not kneel in solemn prayer beside out bunks, with our families or together before an Op? Can we gather together after an Exfil and thank our God for a safe return?

Army regs. allow me to wear my Class A uniform in place of a civilian suit while attending a social function, religious service or "my buddy's wedding". I am a US fighting man. My enemies do not care what tab I have or don't have, they do not care if I'm a beleiver or not. They want my destruction.

Knowing the task at hand, I will use whatever weapons and means at my disposal to protect and serve my fellow team mates, my country, my God.

I have served in harms way, I have felt His divine province in my protection, I recognize His hand in all I do.

Almighty GOD, Who art the Author of liberty and the Champion of the oppressed, hear our prayer.

We, the men of Special Forces, acknowledge our dependence upon Thee in the preservation of human freedom.

Go with us as we seek to defend the defenseless and to free the enslaved.

May we ever remember that our nation, whose motto is "In God We Trust", expects that we shall acquit ourselves with honor, that we may never bring shame upon our faith, our families, or our fellow men.

Grant us wisdom from Thy mind, courage from Thine heart, strength from Thine arm, and protection by Thine hand.

It is for Thee that we do battle, and to Thee belongs the victor's crown.

For Thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory, forever.

Father, please watch over my little ones while I am away, may their dreams be filled with sweet memories of dad being home once more. See to their needs, let them know I am safe with my team. Thank you the warmth this night, the food we have. Bless this village, the women and child here, that they may sleep without fear of terror. See to the leaders of this land, allow your spirit to dwell here for a time. Bless and guide our elected leaders, bless the United States of America.

AMEN

Doo Hak 'eh hoodez gl"ee"da' nah 'ah baad di

[1stindoor]

Thanks for the bump WD, I too have no problem in professing my faith. But as the good COL pointed out I am also a Soldier. I have no found a problem being both.

[craigepo]

I often marvel at how chaplains and other persons performing a public prayer mess this up.

Last year, I was one of 5 chaplains for the Grand Lodge of Missouri. Of the five, there was myself(Lutheran), a Lutheran pastor, a Baptist, a Southern Baptist minister, and a Jewish rabbi. Our duties were to travel our piece of the state when the head dudes were around, and perform the prayers for whatever was going on.

One prerequisite for admission into a masonic lodge is a belief in God. Many are Christian, some Jewish. I presume there are some Muslims, although I have personally never met one. Nonetheless, there is always an interesting cross-section of religious beliefs at a Masonic function.

When performing a prayer at such a function, all present believe in God; not all believe in Christ. To finish a prayer with "in Jesus' name" forces a Jew to pray to someone he believes is a false prophet. Accordingly, Masonic prayers do not so end. (That Special Forces prayer above seemed very Masonic, by the way.)

Some present-day Christians have some heartache over such a prayer. Having memorized the Lord's prayer, I don't understand their consternation. When one reads the prayers and other like discussions from our country's Founding Fathers, much of the language found therein followed the Masonic idea discussed above.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by craigepo

Some present-day Christians have some heartache over such a prayer. Having memorized the Lord's prayer, I don't understand their consternation. When one reads the prayers and other like discussions from our country's Founding Fathers, much of the language found therein followed the Masonic idea discussed above.

The ending comes from John 14:13-14. Jesus says,

Originally Posted by Jesus

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
From the King James

There is a "belief" that anything asked in "his name" must be granted. I use it occasionally when I honestly feel that my prayers are not for me but for His kingdom.

[craigepo]

1stindoor:
I guess my question would be whether that ending is mandatory, as opposed to discretionary, to the point the chaplain must either disobey orders or his faith?

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by craigepo

1stindoor:
I guess my question would be whether that ending is mandatory, as opposed to discretionary, to the point the chaplain must either disobey orders or his faith?

I would humbly offer that it is discretionary. I think the only ones that would take it as "mandatory" would be those of the fundamentalist persuasion.

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

I would humbly offer that it is discretionary. I think the only ones that would take it as "mandatory" would be those of the fundamentalist persuasion.

FYI - "He" taught, by way of example, when "those" around him asked, "Lord, teach us".

He said, "Pray as I do".

Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name; (address God)

thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven. (recognize His purposes)

Give us this day our daily bread, (ask for our needs)

And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
(ask for foregiveness, a sign for humility)

And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil. (His blessings)

For thine is the kingdom,
the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen. (in His name)

I do not think the Lord ever intended that our prayers become repititious or religious. His ministry was about braking the bonds of religious crap. The exisitng leaders viewed the Lords ministry as rebelious and counter to their power base. The followers of Judah went to their leaders, who prayed for them, was their conduit, in short, controlled them, held those ancient text/scrolls close to their vests/robes.

When Jesus showed up, which was predicted, the leadership base viewed his arrival as a threat, the whole Joseph/Mary tax, have all male children killed thing.

At the age of 12, he was teaching the established religious leadership, he knew the text well, he was preparing for his ministry like all good young jewish boys, he started his ministry like all other rabiis at the age of 30. He knew his role. "Know thyself is the foundation of knowledge".

God gave the children of Israel the 10 Commandments, God then gave other commandments during the 40 years in the wilderess, and not until an entire generation had passed, did they find the promised land. In doing this no one entered the new place with "bad blood" in remembering Egypt, enslavement/occupation, civil order of law or rule. They were children in a new country.

When Jesus finally started his ministry, the group was quagmired in 1,000's of laws to include don't cook on the Sabeth, do not provide comfort on the sabeth, do not help your neighbor on the sabeth, etc.

When Jesus taughty with parables, the Good Samaritan as an example, he chose "Samaritan" with purpose. He did not say the Good Syrian, or the Good Roman, the Good Egyptian or Jew. The Samaritan was viewed as the lesser of all other ethnic groups, they were the lowest group on the ladder.

Him choosing Samaritan makes the lesson more valuable.

If the parable was told today, it might be more like the comedian who once said, "Boxing was a white man sport, followed by the black man who was followed by a Mexican. Once a Puerto Rican makes it to the top, look out, theres an American Indian about to kick his ass."

When Jesus said, "You can talk to God directly, he knows the status of even the smallest of birds, do you not think he knows your needs, go to him prayer". Once he did that, the plan was set in place to remove him from taking any more power and authority from the established leadership. They challenged him directly, siting the Law. He said, as Isaiah predicted, He would replace the Law.

I think Jesus has a great sense of humor, "Great are the words of Isaiah, look that's me talking to Isaiah, who is talking to you today, ha, ha. Today I give you a knew Law. Love God, love thy neighbor".

Simple to the point, that one simple passage encompass all other laws together. No other law falls outside of those two.

Keeping the 10 commandments becomes easier to understand, we keep those commandments - Honor God, no other Gods before, no false Gods, do not worship idols, TVs, strippers, booze, money, movie stars, politicans, celeberties, do not take my name in vain, etc.

Love your neighbor, do not steel, murder, commit adultry, lie, covet thy neighbors Harley Davidson, boat, truck, job etc.

Now we are commanded to help our neighbor get unstuck, find him a job, take his kids hunting when they are down range, remove the ox from the mud, visit the sick in the Nursing home, buy the old vet breakfast.

God is not lookig for perfection, he just holds high standards in behavior, do unto others.

[hurly]

I'm kind of going thru the same thing in my VFW post. Our Chaplain insists on ending every prayer "in Jesus name" We have Jews , Native Americans, and at least one Buddhist who are being made uncomfortable during the official post meetings. Most solve it by just not going to the meetings.
I've mentioned it to him as well as the officers, to no avail. He has a "Klingenschmidt" attitude.
It is divisive for no reason. The VFW ritual and Chaplains Handbook are ecumenical and should be read as written.
I have to decide if it is a hill I want to die on.

Originally Posted by hurly

It is divisive for no reason. The VFW ritual and Chaplains Handbook are ecumenical and should be read as written.
I have to decide if it is a hill I want to die on.

Why? I mean why the Chaplain? Why him? Why not someone else? You for example, would you say something different?

Reading from an authorized committee driven book sounds a lot like agenda not prayer. "Now if I can just get the message changed, change direction, change meaning, change,..."

[Dragbag036]

Originally Posted by wet dog

Now we are commanded to help our neighbor get unstuck, find him a job, take his kids hunting when they are down range, remove the ox from the mud, visit the sick in the Nursing home, buy the old vet breakfast.

God is not lookig for perfection, he just holds high standards in behavior, do unto others.

WD,

I really like the way you have broken down these thoughts, as I also am not ashamed of my faith and my religion (Christianity), there is one thing that I believe people forget. It is not just about how good you are are and what you do for others, the Bible says Romans 10:9 (King James Version) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Lastly I will leave you Brothers with this passage to go along with what WD is speaking of

James 2:14-26 (New International Version, ©2010)

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

DB .00002 cents (I grew up in the church, my father being a Baptist minister is not what saves me, but he did raise me in the ways in which I should go) I am a QP, but I am also a Christian. I take pride and draw strength from that fact!

[Richard]

Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

Richard

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Richard

Gawd, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

Richard

Amen!