Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?

It's also similar to the Tzahal's Gibush for the Sayeret units.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by racing_snake

It's all similar to the Tzahal's Gibush for the Sayeret units.

RS:

Well, if you had stayed with 2 CR through the unit it is today (4/2 SBCT), guess where you would have been two months ago? He, he, he. Mangadi in Alaska for a couple of days.

The way I look it is this. If you want someone to walk until he hallucinates due to fatigue and lack of food or rest, put him through an ARTEP of thirty years ago or send him to Ranger School of thirty years ago. Neither proved a damn thing about a man or leader. The conventional ARTEPS of that era ended in a Nuke simulator -- thus showing the end of the world. The SF ARTEPs of that era normally ended with the Team having to walk another ten or twenty miles for exfil when the Air Guard refused to launch the exfil mission.

Is it a good thing? I like Grange immenselfy so won't criticize his intent. I also know how the rest of the Army will view his intent -- then bastardize it until they kill ten or fifteen guys because they didn't know the difference between a smoking and a leadership exercise.

It will happen now that it appears to be another bullet on an OER.

Gene

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

It will happen now that it appears to be another bullet on an OER.

Gene

I thank whomever the personnel "managler" was that removed "Tact" from the OER. That was always a "no go at this station" for me

[kgoerz]

I also don't believe there were stress cards or stress circles.

It was 1995 when a private who was working as a pit puppy in SOTIC showed me his stress card from Basic. If it was a fake he did an excellent job. The other privates working the detail verified it. I swear I am not joking.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by Bayonet14

My 2 cents - go w/a stress test for all enlisted and OBC personnel - model it after GEN Granges' Mangudai.

"He had a selection process that he put potential leaders of his force through," Grange said in early December, 24 hours into the most recent Mangudai exercise. The Mangudai commander would take his troops out into the wilderness for several days, deprive them of food and sleep, and then present them with physical and mental challenges to wear down their bodies and their brains.

"It had to do with inducing stress, and then watching how those possible leaders adapted to those conditions," Grange said, seated in his Spartan quarters in this Belgian military camp where the latest Mangudai session took place.

By Sean D. Naylor

Link to article: http://www.geocities.com/air_mech_strike/training.htm

Bayonet14-
You should have read your history - the Mongudai were origibnally led by a Mongol named Yasutai - they were the famed wolf warriors so effectively used by Ghengis Khan. And they would starve themselves for seven days before battle in order to be as hungy as the wolves they emulated - only the best were initiated into this elite force.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by beedlesw

I just got back from tdy at Ft Jackson a week ago, and it's the same way. Part of the initial briefing when we got there was "don't talk to the trainees". One of the DSs I talked to told me that now they get to keep their cell phones, weekend passes every weekend, they can smoke and chew now, in BCT. The only time they really feel any hardship is the first two weeks, if then.

I would beg to differ with these statements, having just returned from BCT at Ft. Jackson 24 hours ago. There are no cell phones, passes of any kind, tobacco products or caffeine. Smoking by the DS's is alive and well, and I can personally vouch for that after being in a platoon that was kept in Red Phase for six weeks straight. Average sleep is about 4.5 hours per night, not the 7 widely advertised.

Is the the stress level at BCT still high? Yes. Recruits still experience the cumulative effects of sleep loss, constant exertion, and DS-enforced discipline and attention to detail, as they rightly should. Not everyone makes it - we had 3 AWOLs in my platoon and my battle buddy is being chaptered out of the Army after suffering from a complete breakdown in week 8. Everyone still has to pass the APFT - I had to complete my final run on a broken foot so that I could graduate. However, there was no intimidation on the firing line in my Company, and BRM was probably the most professionally-run part of the training that I experienced. It was impressive to see the gains that brand new shooters made in only ten days, and we received some very good follow-on training during the MOUT, team and reflexive fire ranges from our Combat Arms DS's.

Next stop: BAC and OCS at Ft. Benning, GA.

[bubba]

You say that BRM was the "most professional", by that I can surmise that you equate Professional with not being yelled at. Most folks that I have run across seem to do the same. My question is it any less professional to "dig off in some one's ass" when warranted ie., basic training with a bunch of slack ass civilians who have never been ask to do something to standard, or say if your 'jundies' are shitting every damn where? The true measure of the Professional, IMHO, is not weather he yells alot, but what he is saying while he is yelling, and if he knows when it will work to solve the issue, or just make things worse. Just my .02, have a good un'

[jatx]

Bubba, I used "professional" to note their effectiveness at reaching the desired end result - a platoon of qualified shooters. The Army was very, very systematic at teaching BRM, starting with dry fire drills in the bays and continuing all the way through grouping, zeroing, pre-qual and qualification, in addition to three very beneficial days spent in the EST 2000 simulator. The approach to most other events was not as comprehensive or organized, and thus my comment.

BTW, my Drill Sergeants would never use a curse word or shout, and if they had done so, I certainly wouldn't be posting about it on the Internet!

[ROTCNY]

There has to be a standards disconnect somewhere. I know several Soldiers that graduated from BCT in late 2005 who related incidents of peers not passing an APFT, but graduating anyways.

I personally witnessed recent graduates of a Ft. Leonard Wood BCT fail an APFT conducted at BAC. Also, the majority of these PVTs were lacking in proper respect to NCOs, failing to come to parade rest, ignoring orders, etc. Many of the same PVTs from FLW that were able to pass the APFT went on to fail the longer runs conducted in Tower week. Perhaps this is just an isolated problem with a single training Bn. at FLW or maybe its more widespread than we know.

The only squared away PVTs I encountered during my time at BAC were Sand Hill graduates heading to RIP. I can relate more examples of recent BCT graduates miserably failing to qualify on paper targets, I'm talking 8 hits out of 40 and they graduated from Sand Hill. Another PVT who recently arrived in my Bn. clearly did not meet Height/Weight standards. The fact of the matter is I know there are many PVTs out there that are being allowed to leave BCT without meeting basic Army standards.

Somewhere in TRADOC there's a lack of standards enforcement between the various units conducting BCT. I have a couple new PVTs coming to my PLT next month who've just completed BCT, I'll let you all know what they have to say about their experience.

[Scimitar]

Stress, Bannon said, "is permanent but it's also dynamic. From the time you were born, your central nervous system started experiencing stressors.....the stress is stored in your body."

Morning Gentlemen, first post on site after intro.

late 20's...heading off to BCT for 18x contract soon. Aiming for 18D.

Finding thread very interesting and am wanting to ask a question.

Having been brought up by an Infantry Officer, I have always been thankful for the oldman being such a hard arse when I was a kid. Didn't appreciate it then of course . (lol)

The 'training' the old man has given me has generated a kind of love for stress that makes me often push way beyond my physical boundries. Have burnt right out a couple of times, but always keen to go back for more.

QUESTION: I have always had it in the back of my head that the amount of 'massive' pressure situations one puts oneself through over the years may have a longterm detremental effect.

Is this Shrink saying that every bit of stress we go thru is stored and that we only have so much room to store it before we overload?

I've always had it in the back of my head that this sought of thing existed...and am honestly concerned that I may have used alot of my room up already.....I push myself harder than most civilians I know....apart from the old man that is(lol)....he's a machine, even at 62

I guess what I'm saying is I'd hate to think that I have some sort of Phsyc weakess, that will ultimately make me less usful to SF just becuase I've busted my arse and put myself under high levels of stress these past 10 years?

Yes, you store up stress, but you can also process it?

Thougts?

[bubba]

Not too sure on the "Psyc shit", but I have since heard of what is referred to as "stress inoculation". This idea may sound harsh, but think about it, if you lift weight (s) enough, your body will make more muscle, and the next time you are required to lift the same / similar object your body will be much more accustom to the weight. So it could be figured that good old mother nature has built similar adaptors into our brain housing group, hence stressful training for a kinda stress filled job. It just a case of your brain going "hey 'stupid', you've been in this situation before, calm the down, you can do it again, now shut the hell up and make it happen!". Just my .02, have a good un'

[Scimitar]

Yeah, thats the way I figured life worked.....but you know the Shrinks.....always screwing with common sense.

To continue that analogy of yours.

If you are trying to build your tricep strength...and you go to far and tear the mussle.....you could damage it permenantly and it is for ever weak.....case in point....PTSD.

Question is....is can you do this as well by just putting ya self thru to much S all the time.

If I asked you BTDTs who have been around for a while and seen you're share of S and had you're share of stress wouldn't you say that life works like that...the more stress you're under the more you findout hey I can handle alot more then I realised?

[stakk4]

erroneous post

[leif]

Simply put, the army just wants numbers, therefore the DS's can't really do their job. It's sad but true. Since the army wants to up their numbers, the standard is lowered. I agree that there should be standards, but honestly as long as the higher-ups want to up troop numbers, its going to happen. This is one of the many reasons i want to become a Special Forces operator. Also, i definetly agree that the more stress you are exposed to, the better you can deal with it. I don't know if it holds true today, but i didn't go through BCT and AIT too long ago. When i did go we still did everything the same in AIT as we did in BCT, but it did seemed easier, because everything became routine after a while. It was the same standards, but just with that little bit of experience with the same stress levels, it was simple.

[InfantryPL]

Is BAC the new AIT or something? Forgive me for my old school thinking, but I still say basic instead of BCT and I'm unfamiliar with the term BAC.