Army Immerses Soldiers in Weaponry

[BMT (RIP)]

I think Gene is right. The BAR fired from an open bolt position.

BMT

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think he is too. I posted that yesterday but deleted it. It sounded arrogant coming from a medic and the LAST thing I would ever want would be to give anyone the impression that medics in general or I specifically are/am arrogant.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

It sounded arrogant coming from a medic and the LAST thing I would ever want would be to give anyone the impression that medics in general or I specifically are/am arrogant.

God forbid, a medic, even a humble SF medic sounding arrogant? That could never happen, ever. And NDD, who would ever expect that unassuming you could be arrogant?

[Books]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

In the late eighties we didn't do much weapons training in 7th SFG. Deploying all the time/op tempo. During Just Cause my Company had seven AD'S in two weeks because people wanted to carry the confiscated weapons...Uzie's, Mac 10's...etc.(Lucky no one was hurt) Lucky I had A good T.S who made us carry our issued Weapons that we were familiar with. I will never forget that lesson learned. Weapons handling these days even before 911 has improved greatly. Don't they do Combat MMS in the Q-Course now?. Before an ex Cook could go thru the Q-Course, never fire one round, then be assigned to a Team after graduation for deployment. I never fired a weapon in the Q-Course (18C) I remember one time they were talking about us running a two week Combat MMS Course for Q-Course Students at SOT School but our time was tasked with running courses. I thought it was a great and necessary idea.

FYI, there's now a week of shooting during the second phase that covers the basics pretty well, starting with flat range quals to transitions to shooting around barriers, etc. We end up with a primer in CQB and urban movement. I think they estimate that we shoot around 1500 rounds of 5.56 and about half that in 9mm. Nothing fancy, but enough (hopefully) that we don't literally or figuratively shoot ourselves in the foot when we get to our teams.

If you're like me and are fortunate enough to go through second phase twice, you get two weeks!

Books

[incommin]

What happened to the days when they brought every weapon out of the arms room and you spend days firing weapons from the 98 Mauser and 03 Springfield to semi auto and full auto from all over the world??????

Don't they do that any more????

[incommin]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I think he is too. I posted that yesterday but deleted it. It sounded arrogant coming from a medic and the LAST thing I would ever want would be to give anyone the impression that medics in general or I specifically are/am arrogant.

It is against Army policy for medics to be arrogant. They are trained to be humble and caring servants!

[CDRODA396]

Originally Posted by incommin

Once a vast number of families used guns to provide meat for the table and kids grew up around guns and learnd to handle them at a young age. Now most soldiers come into the Army and never fired a weapon.....except for a few point and shoot gang members.

I agree that this is a major contributor or root cause of the problem and is a result of the swing from a predominanently rural society to an overwhelmingly urban one that has taken place over that last 40 to 50 years. There was a time when every red-blooded american youth owned his first BB gun almost before he could walk, .22 by age 7 to 9, 30-30 shortly thereafer, followed by .20 guage, .12 gauge and finally a true rifle by 13-15. He grew up in the woods, hunting rabbits, squirrels and deer and learned safe gun handling from his father who would "smack" the back of his head with an open hand, reinforced the second time with a little firmer blow if necessary.

Today, all too often our youth grow up in the city, devoid of guns, and to a larger degree than is good for us, with a father that is more engaged in "chasing the American Dream," than raising his son, and is too tired at the end of the day to take his son out hunting, shooting or anything for that matter.

The old assessment that females make better marksman in the Army than men because they arrive to Basic with no "bad habits" developed in their pre-Army days so listen to what the DS say in no longer valid as the huge majority of both sexes that arrive to Basic have never actually touched a real weapon and have no appreication for its capabilities because they have "blasted" hundreds of thousands of "bad guys" on their XBox's.

So, I believe this is a move back to the way it was many years ago before leaderrship in the peacetime Army became more worried about the possibility of having to call their Boss and report a missing weapon, than they were concerned with developing a "relationship" between the soldier and his best friend, his weapon.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by CDRODA396

So, I believe this is a move back to the way it was many years ago before leaderrship in the peacetime Army became more worried about the possibility of having to call their Boss and report a missing weapon, than they were concerned with developing a "relationship" between the soldier and his best friend, his weapon.

That is because the Army will end your career and put you out over the legitimate accidental loss of a weapon you could buy for a few hundred dollars at Jim's Pawn Shop. Everyone above you up to the Company Commander and possibly higher will likely have their careers abbreviated as well. I saw a three-star go after a battalion commander bacause one of his ODAs got caught on a water infil with a freak storm and lost three or four weapons in a capsize several miles offshore. The LTG "rented" a Navy minesweeper and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to recover the weapons.

If you lose a multi-million dollar aircraft in the Navy or Air Force, unless you did something incredibly stupid, you will be cleared by an administrative board and be flying again within the week. An AF LTC lost an F-16 in the process of trying to take a piss while flying, blasted a big $26,000,000 hole in the German countryside, and was back in the air in less than 48 hours.

Which system makes more sense?

TR

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by incommin

...Once a vast number of families used guns to provide meat for the table and kids grew up around guns and learnd to handle them at a young age. Now most soldiers come into the Army and never fired a weapon.....except for a few point and shoot gang members....
Jim

Jim:

From what I have learned about the Civil War, both sides had problems in training their men how to load and shoot a weapon. Even then, the vast majority of soldiers had never touched a firearm until they joined the Army.

Although I have no statistics concerning today's GI, I would imagine the percentages are pretty much the same.

I have done some informal polls of guys who were in my courses over the years and have found much to my surprise that there is a much higher percentage of hunters and shooters in the Infantry than in SF. The Rangers seem to have both beat though. I think 9 of 10 Rangers own a firearm and five of those nine practice regularly.

I have met a number of former gang members in the Army. The former gang bangers joined the Army because they viewed the Army as the only way to break out of their situation. They leave the gang stuff behind fast if given the chance to do so. I am sure there are also active gang members but they get found out and very soon become history.

Gene

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Jim:

From what I have learned about the Civil War, both sides had problems in training their men how to load and shoot a weapon. Even then, the vast majority of soldiers had never touched a firearm until they joined the Army.

I believe that the reason for that is the same as today. The Civil War was basically the first war in American history that utilized a "modern" army concept. Meaning it was the first all volunteer force where the soldiers, for the most part, weren't fighting for any reason other than pay. In previous wars the people fighting were usually militias fighting in their own backyard. Most of them were recruited from major urban centers where there was no need for and a hinderence of, firearms.
The Civil War also started with the the same peacetime mentality that we have today (especially in the North) and weapons handling and training was mearly a formality as the awesome technilogical might of the weapons would make up for that and bring an easy victory. It didn't then and it didn't today.
I am a big fan of history and my mother and uncle are reenactors. My uncle is also a Civil War historian and that is what I have gleaned form conversing with him.
I also have noticed that history seems to constantly repeat itself and the vast majority of people especially beurocrats seem admament not to learn from it.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by incommin

What happened to the days when they brought every weapon out of the arms room and you spend days firing weapons from the 98 Mauser and 03 Springfield to semi auto and full auto from all over the world??????

Don't they do that any more????

Ahhh, Company range week!!! Clear out the Arms room, clear out the ammo locker, clear out the team houses!!! The smell of LSA and Break-Free, the sound (and smell) of the Gut Truck. Loved 'em, esp. the PPSh, Dragunov, PPK, Berretta SMGs... hated the BAR (only because of the isses cleaning the damn thing, fires like champ). Thanks for bringing those memories back Steve.

Best way to get Teams and Companies on the same sheet of music -- lots of lead downrange.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by incommin

It is against Army policy for medics to be arrogant. They are trained to be humble and caring servants!

Oh, hell. I must have missed that block of instruction, I thought they said - you guys are the best trained field medics in the world... and I believed it.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by incommin

What happened to the days when they brought every weapon out of the arms room and you spend days firing weapons from the 98 Mauser and 03 Springfield to semi auto and full auto from all over the world?????? Don't they do that any more????

Jim:

I doubt it. I can recall the various times that SF Command tried to bring back to life the concept of having an arms room of 'obsolete and foreign' weapons in each Group where guys could do what you describe. As of 1997 when I retired, it had not gone anywhere.

The weapons would have to undergo a mechanical certification run out of Aberdeen where they would be hydrofluxed and otherwise test fired to ensure they were still safe to fire. Most units couldn't afford the TDY and the Army didn't have any of the obsoldete ammo -- because it is really obsolete. Shortly after I retired, SF Command put a nix on firing of any 'obsolete or foreign weapons'.

Not sure where this stands today but I think it a good idea for our guys to be trained on the various Soviet machineguns, mortars, and even artillery. The obsolete rifles, pistols, and submachineguns are so obsolete that there is no need to deal with them anymore.

Gene

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

The obsolete rifles, pistols, and submachineguns are so obsolete that there is no need to deal with them anymore. Gene

Well that depends where in the world you wind up. For the most part I think you are probably correct as there is an excess of Eastern Block and other stuff floating around with serviceable ammo in most places in the world. However, I have had to deal with a variety of WWII stuff throughout the 80s and into the early 90s for one reason or another. It is not so much that you are going to equip forces with it as much as it is the ability to use throw aways and be able to deal with what you have available when all else fails or is just not appropriate for a variety of situations. I had wellrods with ammo that was still serviceable as late as 1988. While there were other things available technologically better, mission profiles and other requirements actually made them the best choice for specific requirements. Of course, that unit and its mission has gone the way of the cold war, but I am sure that in some corner of the world there has to be similar requirements and if not now, with areas into which we are getting access today and if they start looking at UW as an offensive strategy vice a reactionary effort by our own country, surely in the future. The obsolete systems may be the only game in town initially, especially during the early phases of a US sponsored effort. For the most part, however, I would think that those that need to have an ability that specific would discover the requirement as part of their area studies and pre-mission planning.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

However, I have had to deal with a variety of WWII stuff throughout the 80s and into the early 90s for one reason or another. It is not so much that you are going to equip forces with it as much as it is the ability to use throw aways and be able to deal with what you have available when all else fails or is just not appropriate for a variety of situations. I had wellrods with ammo that was still serviceable as late as 1988..... Of course, that unit and its mission has gone the way of the cold war, but I am sure that in some corner of the world there has to be similar requirements and if not now, with areas into which we are getting access today and if they start looking at UW as an offensive strategy vice a reactionary effort by our own country, surely in the future. The obsolete systems may be the only game in town initially, especially during the early phases of a US sponsored effort. For the most part, however, I would think that those that need to have an ability that specific would discover the requirement as part of their area studies and pre-mission planning.

Jack:

I tried to cut so as to make your post shorter but didn't do well. T

The basic concepts you discuss date from the mid 80's through the mid 90's. Sorry but that is from twenty to thirty years ago and even then you didn't find too many countries with gear dating prior to 1970 in terms of its technology.

Today you won't find these 'obsolete' weapons any more and certainly won't find the ammo so perhaps a date is needed to define 'obsolete'.

There is a reason why the operational concept you describe died and it isn't due to the fall of the Soviet Union. It was due to something called "Deep Battle" and more precisely the lethality and precision of said systems as tbey have developed to this day.

In the future, an 18B will learn the concepts of how the various types of direct and indirect fire weapons work and will be tested to see how well he understands such concepts work. If he understands these concepts, he will be able to understand how any direct fire small arm works and thus how to D@A said weapon and how to use it to its best ability. He will have something akin to a PDA that will have a library of small arms and the ammunition to include headstamps and etc that will give him any information he desires concerning the use of the weapon with its ammo.

Medics will be highly trained for trauma and will have a device that will tie them into the particular type of surgeon who specializes in the types of wounds encountered and that surgeon will talk and guide the medic through operations in the field.

The Engineers and Commo guys will have the same types of systems and the same type of real time feedback. Intel Sergeants will have real time imagery in 3D and in color of their area and instant response from assets up to National Level.

The 'exapnding gas propelling a kinetic energy projectile' from a hand held weapon using primers and gun powder will be obsolete as well -- as they should have been obsolete about ten years ago.

Gene the Obsolete