Blackwater - Page 3

uboat509 · 07-25-2006, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems to me like all of the hullaballu about Blackwater and other PMC's is just a repeat of the Executive Outcomes outcry from the early and mid 90's after Sierra Leone and Rwanda. Anybody else feel me on this?
I think that a big portion of the outcry stems from the government feeling threatened by an organization that they can't bully into giving away freedoms. A well regulated militia being neseccary to the security of a free state...

The government is not the problem. Uncle Sugar is perfectly happy to keep using PMCs. The problem is other entities. First there are the paranoid types who see conspiricies in every shadow, the USG is building secret armies to take over the world blah blah blah. Then there are those in the government and the military who do not trust civilian contrators, sometimes with good cause. And then there the PMCs themselves, some of whom are bound and determined to engage in various forms of jackassery as eveidenced by the tapes that were mentioned in other posts.

SFC W

NousDefionsDoc · 07-25-2006, 20:31

"The Government" is a very large entity and in this case a very broad statement. There are indeed government officials that are very concerned about the use of contractors. And in some cases, we have been our own worse enemy.

What I believe will eventually happen is that the field will be regulated to the point of becoming completely useless.

IMO, we haven't done a very good job of policing ourselves.

CommoGeek · 07-25-2006, 21:11

+1 to NDD's post. That isn't just for the PSD side either. The technology support side suffers from many of the same problems, only we aren't filming ourselves shooting up non-combatants. Our stupidity isn't as spectacular.

I'm not sure about PSD work, but every resume on the technology side is checked out by the DoD before that person is hired. Sounds great, right? Waivers for everything do exist and resumes can and have been forged. The gov't checks your piece of paper, not all of the facts and the timeline behind it.

If the industry wants to survive in its present form then it needs to police itself. Some companies already do this, others don't.

Solid · 07-26-2006, 06:05

Roger that TS/NDD, didn't mean to come off so strong. I spent the summer in the employ of one of these firms, and have seen/ dealt with a lot of things that were very impressive, but also a lot of things which wrenched my stomach. The latter fired my post; apologies.

A lot of the high-level firms have come together in Iraq especially to force the USG and IG to start regulating the PMCs out there, effects are slow in the making because there are a lot of individuals out there who are 'below the radar' because the business was not heavily monitored at the start of the war.

Tubbs: Executive Outcomes and their ilk are different organizations from the modern PMC in three ways. First, EO et al. operated on behalf of non-Western govts, fulfilling contracts set out by, for example, African rulers. Second difference is that these guys were often paid in land, diamond mining rights, etc. This produced a nasty little loop, whereby the companies were more or less directly profitting from the land they fought over. Third, these companies had capabilities that BW is only now reaching (batallion strength), including armor and soviet fighter-jets. The majority of contractors these days don't have those kind of capabilities, although as I said, it's a changing world.

Some argue that the best case scenario is that the most reliable firms with the best hiring, firing, and PR practices will push hard for more and more stringent controls on the industry. These controls will hurt the profit lines of other, less 'reliable' companies, and slowly these companies will close. The individiuals working for the closing companies will look for work with the big firms, and the big firms will select the best and leave the rest out. In the end, the industry will be far more consolidated, packed with all the high-capability operators out there, and probably will function with far higher fidelity as a policy tool for the USG.

JMO,

Solid

**Team Sergeant** · 07-26-2006, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid

and have seen/ dealt with a lot of things that were very impressive,

What may be impressive to the civilian might be considered to be folly by the professional soldier.

These companies operate for one reason, massive profit. While some of the employees might be red blooded Americans the owners see only green. They started as a good idea and quickly grew into worthless empires, worthless as many are corrupt beyond imagination;

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...t-with-new.php

US military contractor hit with new lawsuit alleging Iraq fraud
Holly Manges Jones at 11:10 AM ET

[JURIST] A new federal lawsuit has been filed against banned American military contractor Custer Battles [corporate website] and two former Pentagon officials alleging that the defendants tried to bypass a suspension order against the contractor by setting up shell companies to continue gaining rebuilding contracts in Iraq. The lawsuit, a copy of which was obtained by AP, names former acting Navy Secretary Hansford T. Johnson [official profile] and former acting Navy Undersecretary Douglas Combs as co-conspirators in the scheme. The suit was brought by two whistleblowers, including Robert Isakson, a former employee of the contractor who won [JURIST report] a previous suit against Custer Battles in March based on allegations that the firm overcharged the US Coalition Provisional Authority [official website] by nearly $50 million.

This is one of many that is being looked at for fraud..... and IMO fraud in a time of war should equal a very long prison sentence.

Team Sergeant

JGarcia · 07-26-2006, 09:28

In my opinion BW (AKA: "The Army of Darkness") is a good place to work. I've never seen any yaayhoo instructors. The company is a for profit company, and its important to rememeber that. Um, don't go to the $20K school. At least I wouldn't. Before a guy goes somewhere, there is a train up and a certification, which they pay you to do. Sometimes a guy is kept on a paid retainer, at home while he waits to go abroad.

This stuff is sometimes more about who you know than what you know. That is where the danger lies. If you want to work (and have the prerequisite background) , attend a cheaper class (there are several to choose from), make some contacts, talk to people. If they like you, they'll call you.

Don't dabble in the female employees, they will send you packin quicker than you know what. Don't run your mouth about what you used to be or do, or how you did it at this place or that. They don't care and you aren't going to impress them. Don't be a loud mouth. Don't start ordering people around. But it is a corporate world, if you have those backstabbing skills you might get to use them, you would be wise to watch out for these kinds of people.

TS,
IIRC, wasn't custer battles owned by a westpoint grad? I think a company called Danubia Global bought the remnants of them.

**Team Sergeant** · 07-26-2006, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by NG_M4_Shooter

In my opinion BW (AKA: "The Army of Darkness") is a good place to work. I've never seen any yaayhoo instructors. The company is a for profit company, and its important to rememeber that. Um, don't go to the $20K school. At least I wouldn't. Before a guy goes somewhere, there is a train up and a certification, which they pay you to do. Sometimes a guy is kept on a paid retainer, at home while he waits to go abroad.

This stuff is sometimes more about who you know than what you know. That is where the danger lies. If you want to work (and have the prerequisite background) , attend a cheaper class (there are several to choose from), make some contacts, talk to people. If they like you, they'll call you.

Don't dabble in the female employees, they will send you packin quicker than you know what. Don't run your mouth about what you used to be or do, or how you did it at this place or that. They don't care and you aren't going to impress them. Don't be a loud mouth. Don't start ordering people around. But it is a corporate world, if you have those backstabbing skills you might get to use them, you would be wise to watch out for these kinds of people.

TS,
IIRC, wasn't custer battles owned by a westpoint grad? I think a company called Danubia Global bought the remnants of them.

We're happy you like BlackWater.

As a professional soldier I see them as just what they are, contactors, not an Army by any means. Take away the money and they will fade away very quickly. I would rather not have someone beside me that fights only for a profit motive.

I've not heard anything good concerning Blackwater, their training, management or personnel.

Team Sergeant

Solid · 07-26-2006, 15:18

NDD and Commo:
Why is a heavily regulated military contractor industry necessarily an ineffective industry?

Thanks,

Solid

NousDefionsDoc · 07-26-2006, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid

NDD and Commo:
Why is a heavily regulated military contractor industry necessarily an ineffective industry?

Thanks,

Solid

Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 07-26-2006, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

Financial services.

But I agree that regulation usually is a bad thing.

NousDefionsDoc · 07-26-2006, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Financial services.

But I agree that regulation usually is a bad thing.

LOL - Puleaze. You mean those savings & loan guys?

**Roguish Lawyer** · 07-26-2006, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

LOL - Puleaze. You mean those savings & loan guys?

Yes.

**Team Sergeant** · 07-26-2006, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Name one efficient heavily regulated industry.

FAA.....

NRC.....

NousDefionsDoc · 07-26-2006, 19:28

If you guys are going to be silly, I'm going to go post pics of a bunny with a pancake on his head in the Pipeline....

**Team Sergeant** · 07-26-2006, 19:35

I'm not kidding.... the FAA does a great job and I'd say its heavily regulated, the NRC, well, we've not has a melt down yet....

My point being there is absolutely no standards for the security industry, none, zero. Blackwater does not set any standards, not unless its in the profit end of the industry.

I will also say there should be some standards, a small set would be nice.....

And 20k for training, we spend more on Infantry Privates for six weeks training..........

The private firms have nothing on the military, nothing..... our gangs have more "team" spirit then the security companies.