Osama Bin Laden dead

[Matty]

Originally Posted by Richard

Everyone understands that that picture is nothing but a political photo op and not a pic of the 'real' {tactical} decision makers overseeing the mission given the 'green light' by the NCA, right.

Richard

Exactly. Anyone who has ever had a commander try and call the shots while watching 'kill TV' at HQ knows what a disaster that can be.

The only reason for Obama and his team to watch is (obvious) interest, and to have the president sitting with his Rolodex at the ready to get Zardari on the line just in case they noticed Pakistani security forces showing up on the OBJ.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Richard

Everyone understands that that picture is nothing but a political photo op and not a pic of the 'real' {tactical} decision makers overseeing the mission given the 'green light' by the NCA, right.

To me, that picture is like looking at a bunch of hogs staring at a wristwatch - they all know they're looking at something but have no clue as to what it is they are seeing or what is going on.

Richard

QP Richard--

Even if every laptop in that room had nothing but games of Freecell on the screen and the POTUS were playing Farmville,* I think the image itself is contrary to the best interests of healthy civil-military relations. The photo re-enforces an inchoate perception of civilian control of the armed forces that is rooted in mass popular culture.

YMMV.



______________________________________
* "The first one is free" an anonymous QP.

[DeltaGolf]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

My brain went to worrying about the political capitalization of this success.

Will the POTUS use this as a reason to pull out of A-stan and thus please his political base?
(corollary: was there an international political debt incurred to do just that?)

Will victory be declared, and demobilization be used an excuse to cut military spending in the imminent budget/debt/deficit debate?
If military spending is cut and entitlements are extended, it will be hard to reverse in the future.

Indeed, I've already seen talking heads opining that "We've done all we can in Afghanistan and we should immediately withdraw forces." One such "expert" suggested that POTUS's very next action should be to announce the withdrawal of US troops. Seriously, where do the news orgs find the people?

Originally Posted by MtnGoat

Just got a Email for a good IT friend telling everyone of a Video sent out today with a subject line of: Osama Bin Laden Killing Video. He saying it is a Virus.

True or not.. FYI stay safe!!

I'd be extremely wary of any videos purporting to show the op in progress. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I would expect that the video would be closely held for some period of time. If released, wouldn't it be done over mainstream media? Of course it will take almost superhuman will power on my part to overcome the urge to watch it.

Originally Posted by regularamymedic

Im with Team Sergeant....Something about this just isnt quite right.....The buriel at sea in mere (hours).....cmon?

RAM

I don't know, it makes some sense to me. We (America) take the high moral ground by showing (undue) respect for our enemy while simultaneously robbing his supporters of the opportunity to visit his grave. It also solves the logistical problem of determining where to bury his body.

Originally Posted by Reaper411

It is not so much what they did with his corpse which I am concerned about. As long as he is 100% dead, then I am satisfied. My concern is the onset of complacency, our biggest adversary, brought on by a false sense of safety and security from those who believe all evil acts will cease because he is gone...

R411

Well said, Reaper. Getting Bin Laden was a phenomenal success, but in the grand scheme of things, at this point his elimination is more symbolic. Al Queda and other Islamists are still active. I'm troubled by those already suggesting that this is a death blow to Islamic terrorists.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by DeltaGolf

<<SNIP>>

Well said, [Reaper411]. Getting Bin Laden was a phenomenal success, but in the grand scheme of things, at this point his elimination is more symbolic. Al Queda and other Islamists are still active. I'm troubled by those already suggesting that this is a death blow to Islamic terrorists.

DG--

Nice post!

With respect, I do differ with you on your comment that killing Bin Laden is "more symbolic" for the following reason.

IMO, in the early years of GWOT, the United States made a handful of painful strategic miscues. One of these mistakes was identifying the capture or killing of Bin Laden as a strategic objective. As long as he remained on the prowl, the entire world could argue that America was failing to achieve its goals. Now, with Bin Laden dead, that argument is off the table.

My $0.02.

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Richard

To me, that picture is like looking at a bunch of hogs staring at a wristwatch -

Richard

Yer killin' me!

[GratefulCitizen]

Kinda scratchin' my head at some of this.
The whole event is potentially politically convenient for both the US and Pakistan...should forces be withdrawn.

The US gets to declare victory.
Pakistan gets "street cred" for their hospitality towards UBL.

This leaves Pakistan better able to withstand internal political challenges.
Kinda important for a nuclear-armed nation.

<shrug>
Probably just conspiracy theory fodder.

[Vic]

The Brenner news conference put forth the idea that this was a kill (but capture if that somehow works out) kind of mission; as opposed to a capture (but kill if you have to) kind of mission. Brenner stated that this was done to lessen the danger of the assault team, whichs makes sense. Is this a real distinction made in the goals of missions? Or are these things just too fast and confusing to realistically attempt the latter type of objective.

Try it and find out. End of discussion. Richard

[DevilSide]

Many thanks to all service members for this achievement, we're one step closer.


The news was just talking about starting a withdraw process from Afghanistan, is it a good time or no? I dont feel like we are close to being done to be honest.

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Myself, I didn't take that picture as the President and his people literally calling the shots as the raid went down, I took it as the President and his people just sitting and watching as observers, while the professionals went ahead and did their jobs.

And I think it was probably snapped just a couple seconds after they all put ther bowls of Orville Redenbacher under the table, out of view!

[DeltaGolf]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

DG--

Nice post!

With respect, I do differ with you on your comment that killing Bin Laden is "more symbolic" for the following reason.

IMO, in the early years of GWOT, the United States made a handful of painful strategic miscues. One of these mistakes was identifying the capture or killing of Bin Laden as a strategic objective. As long as he remained on the prowl, the entire world could argue that America was failing to achieve its goals. Now, with Bin Laden dead, that argument is off the table.

My $0.02.

Thanks Sigaba, and I absolutely agree with you. I meant "symbolic" only as it applies to halting terrorism (similar, I suppose, the killing of Pablo Escobar, while an important event in the war on drugs, was symbolic in that the drug trade continues). Symbolism aside, the fact that we killed Bin Laden (and I might add, in Hollywood-like fashion) sends a strong message to our enemies.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Kinda scratchin' my head at some of this.
The whole event is potentially politically convenient for both the US and Pakistan...should forces be withdrawn.

The US gets to declare victory.
Pakistan gets "street cred" for their hospitality towards UBL.

This leaves Pakistan better able to withstand internal political challenges.
Kinda important for a nuclear-armed nation.

<shrug>
Probably just conspiracy theory fodder.

I'm not buying any of the "political" theories for the simple reason that they all imply that we've known along where Bin Laden was and we could get him at any time, but the Administration simply waited for maximum political gain.

God knows I'm no supporter of the President, but credit must be given where due. Selecting a spec ops raid over bombing, and giving the go ahead showed leadership, and more importantly showed that Obama is very capable of making tough military decisions. Ugh. I feel so dirty saying that, I have to take a very long shower with Lava soap.

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

Myself, I didn't take that picture as the President and his people literally calling the shots as the raid went down, I took it as the President and his people just sitting and watching as observers, while the professionals went ahead and did their jobs.

True. From the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/wo....html?emc=eta1

The President and others were apparently linked to Leon Panetta who was giving them real-time info. It appears that they were not watching the action, let alone that they had any hand in conducting the actual raid.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by DeltaGolf

God knows I'm no supporter of the President, but credit must be given where due. Selecting a spec ops raid over bombing, and giving the go ahead showed leadership, and more importantly showed that Obama is very capable of making tough military decisions. Ugh. I feel so dirty saying that, I have to take a very long shower with Lava soap.

Then again, he might have done it to try and save his ass in the polls. A la the birth certificate.

Don't get all teary-eyed about this shit, dude. It ain't like he pulled the fucking trigger any more than he did on those three pirates.

You're talking about the guy who promised to close Gitmo as a tenet for election. If it weren't for Gitmo, he wouldn't have even got a chance to go all High Noon on bin Laden.

And, that's providing the incident wasn't staged...

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Aloysius

Presidents do this all the time. At least he wasn't on the Carl Vinson with a huge "We Got Him" sign.

Liberal Obama-worshipper say shit like that all the time.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

True, but I think it did take some guts to give the order for this. It could have gone the wrong way.



Do you really believe this Sir?

A: Took guts? What, was he gonna get shot at?

B: If I don't really believe something I post, it'll be in pink.

[DevilSide]

Originally Posted by Dusty

A: Took guts? What, was he gonna get shot at?

B: If I don't really believe something I post, it'll be in pink.

Why would he stage it? I'm not a big fan of the guy either but still, how would nobody call him out on that?

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by DevilSide

Why would he stage it? I'm not a big fan of the guy either but still, how would nobody call him out on that?

How the hell would I know?

Look, if you catch me lying through my ass about one thing, I damn sure don't expect you to believe my ass about anything else I say or do again.

Get it? It's a trust issue.