Fred Thompson, President?

[warrottjr]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Lybia?

Lybia -- Case Study in Fighting State-Sponsored Terrorism

"Libya’s agreement to take responsibility for the Lockerbie Pan Am bombing, to renounce terrorism and to set up a $2.7-billion fund for families of the victims did not receive the attention it deserved. It was part of a successful campaign against state sponsored terrorism that produced measurable change in an individual and a nation’s foreign policy."

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by warrottjr

IMHO, the decision to invade Iraq was brilliant. Coming right after Afganistan, it put the world on notice that state sponsored terroism would not be left unchecked. Looking at Lybia's capitulation and North Korea's recent exit from list of states sponsoring terrorism, progress seems to be made.

I agree with your introductory premise.

Unfortunately, the POTUS and SecDef tried to do it on the cheap, and failed to prepare the American public for the long war, address the post-war reconstruction period, or place the right people and forces in country to get the COIN and transition done quickly. Like it or not, we are drawing people to Iraq who hate us, want to do us harm, and need to be killed. If you want to see an American city looking like Fallujah, then by all means, pull back and let them come here.

The last time the NKs and Iranians cooperated was right after we went through the Iraqi forces like crap through a goose. They were very accomodating then. The NKs are not just sponsoring terrorism, but they are also attempting to undermine the US economy by counterfeiting, as well as distributing WMD and delivery system knowledge and material in a blatant proliferation campaign.

We need to show them the stick again, especially in the middle of a hard Korean winter.

TR

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I agree with your introductory premise.

Unfortunately, the POTUS and SecDef tried to do it on the cheap, and failed to prepare the American public for the long war, address the post-war reconstruction period, or place the right people and forces in country to get the COIN and transition done quickly. Like it or not, we are drawing people to Iraq who hate us, want to do us harm, and need to be killed. If you want to see an American city looking like Fallujah, then by all means, pull back and let them come here.

The last time the NKs and Iranians cooperated was right after we went through the Iraqi forces like crap through a goose. They were very accomodating then. The NKs are not just sponsoring terrorism, but they are also attempting to undermine the US economy by counterfeiting, as well as distributing WMD and delivery system knowledge and material in a blatant proliferation campaign.

We need to show them the stick again, especially in the middle of a hard Korean winter.

TR

Steel on target!

[warrottjr]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

...address the post-war...

A lesson not-so-well learned from Desert Storm. It took us four times longer to redeploy than it did to deploy.

[CPTAUSRET]

As to Libya.

A few years ago I had a conversation with a couple of Irishmen, who happened to be IRA sympathizers. They both stated that after we dusted off Khadafi's tent, he started funneling more money to the IRA. His monies may not have matched what was contributed by individuals in the US, but it was significant!

[Razor]

Originally Posted by JMI

Waiting another year, after waiting 12, would have meant what? What is the absolute worst that could have happened?

Well shoot, what's another year, right? What's another two? What's another decade? The leadership techniques I was taught said that every time you ignore someone doing the wrong thing, you give tacit approval to everybody else to do the same. We may not have engaged immediately, but the circus-like UN negotiations and on again/off again weapon inspection permissions were overtly flaunting the rules set in place not by just the US, but also the "world community". I don't know if you have children, but when my kids decide to not only ignore my rules, but also make a show of it, they quickly learn the error of their ways.

Yet we never thought what to do next. Why? Because we rushed through this decision with political capital in hand, and an enraged (yet uninformed) electorate fired up and raring to go. We never had a plan after his ouster. Maybe if we were not in such a hurry we would have avoided so many deaths.

Maybe, but then again maybe not. I guess I'm a little more forgiving of the leadership as I'm not accustomed to having perfect information (intelligence) before making my decisions. Surely, there could have been a better post-invasion plan, but as you said, we had political capital, and sometimes timing is everything. A good plan executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed after the fact.

Leadership means you do not act on impulse. You use patience, think through all potential actions, and gather support and intelligence.

Again, I don't think 12 years falls into the impulsive category, or even 2 years for that matter. Also, as I mentioned above, you plan as well as you can and then act on what you have, even if its not perfect. Do you really believe that plans to invade Iraq were built from scratch in 2002? It would have been nice for some COIN-savvy folks to have had more input into the OPPLAN, but the reality is that COIN wasn't a priority to planners until it was staring them in the face. Welcome to the wonderful world of conventional military strategic planning. We could have refined the existing plan for another 10 years and you wouldn't have had any more post-invasion COIN content in it than it had from the get go.

It is quite sad that not even on this board can a discussion take place about our shortcomings in leadership.

Perhaps its because on this board there are a few folks that understand the difference between planning and execution, and that taking more time in the former does not always guarantee flawless execution in the latter. Hell, you see that in any professional sport; regardless of time and money spent planning and practicing, in the end someone goes home the loser.

I am second guessing because now, after almost 5 years, it would have been nice if our leaders thought of something, any-fooking-thing, after the invasion. They had no plan after chopping off the head because they rushed the decision.

Maybe you're privvy to better information than I, but it seems to me that "The Plan" has been modified (to varying degrees) several times over the last 5 years.

I sure as shit would not have wasted the Global Capital and Good Will as quickly as we did. That was a fooking colossal mistake. No getting that moment back.

Political capital and goodwill based on ignoring issues that benefit the illegal acts of others (the corrupted oil for food program, Germany and France selling chem and bio technology to Iraq, etc.) has no true value, and is totally dependent on your continued complicity. I'll pass on that, thanks.

[JMI]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

We need to show them the stick again, especially in the middle of a hard Korean winter.

TR

When? Today? Next Month? This summer?

Problem I see with your synopsis is you want everything now. Show of force now.

We're already strong now. China and the Islamist's show patience.

When are you going to show patience??

[JMI]

Originally Posted by Razor

I don't know if you have children, but when my kids decide to not only ignore my rules, but also make a show of it, they quickly learn the error of their ways.

What makes you the father of the world? A country disobeys you, so what? Your hard ass military makes everything right? Ever consider the fact the rest of the world doesn't give a shit? Too macho to eat that shit?

Give me a fooking break. The UN made the resolution, and the UN chose not to act. The US, ON OUR OWN, took control of the UN resolution. This was not a US resolution, it was a UNITED NATIONS resolution. Iraq did not disobey the US, nor did they pose a threat to us. Keep up the mirage.



A good plan executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed after the fact.

I will defer to you on this one, but I disagree. I mean come the fook on, nobody looked for a perfect plan. Nobody needed a rushed plan. No plan needed to be executed in Iraq in 2003. Period. We could have doen jack shit and been fine, so your "good plan executed today" is weak and useless.



Also, as I mentioned above, you plan as well as you can and then act on what you have, even if its not perfect.

You plan as well as you can my fooking ass. That never happened! Period. Don't try and tell me the leadership of this country planned as well as they could. They acted on politcal capital, not leadership!

Do you really believe that plans to invade Iraq were built from scratch in 2002? Welcome to the wonderful world of conventional military strategic planning. We could have refined the existing plan for another 10 years and you wouldn't have had any more post-invasion COIN content in it than it had from the get go.

You answered the question? Or are you asking it? Either way, 2003 was NOT the time to invade.


Perhaps its because on this board there are a few folks that understand the difference between planning and execution, and that taking more time in the former does not always guarantee flawless execution in the latter.

So the majority of the planners on this board think 2003 was the time to invade? The majority had the post-invasion plan? Sure they know the difference between planning and execution. The leadershio of this country DID NOT!!

Maybe you're privvy to better information than I, but it seems to me that "The Plan" has been modified (to varying degrees) several times over the last 5 years.

Yes. I read the blogs. I read the news. We're on our way, hopefully. I said already I am not here to bash.



Political capital and goodwill based on ignoring issues that benefit the illegal acts of others (the corrupted oil for food program, Germany and France selling chem and bio technology to Iraq, etc.) has no true value, and is totally dependent on your continued complicity. I'll pass on that, thanks.


So we invaded Iraq because we knew Germany, Russia and France were complicit?? LMAO, dont go there. We invaded because we're young, inexperienced and stupid. Not because some European contigent that no longer matters in the world some how matters to us.

.

JMI,

Ever hear of the Safwan Cease-fire?

The UN didn't sign it. General Schwarzkopf did. Two Iraqi Generals did. A number of other Generals did. None of them wore a blue helmet.

How about HR 4655? Passed and signed into Public Law 105-338 in 1998.

Does the President of the United States have a responsibility to enforce the laws of the United States?

[JMI]

Originally Posted by Greenhat

JMI,

Does the President of the United States have a responsibility to enforce the laws of the United States?

Yes, and it should damn well take more than planes flying into our buildings to enforce those laws.

9/11 all of a sudden made those laws more enforceable?

(*here is where most insert the "Clinton is to fault" rule*)

[Retired W4]

Yes, and it should damn well take more than planes flying into our buildings to enforce those laws.

JMI, perhaps what it would take for you is a plane flying into one of your high-rise buildings in Las Vegas, with you in it. That would certainly give you a much different perspective.

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by JMI

When? Today? Next Month? This summer?

Problem I see with your synopsis is you want everything now. Show of force now.

We're already strong now. China and the Islamist's show patience.

When are you going to show patience??

Again, you offer criticism without offering an alternative.

Originally Posted by JMI

I could think of a lot of ways we could have spent that capital.

Here, you claimed to have knowledge of an alternative.
Do tell.

I'm still listening.

[Razor]

Hiller...I mean JMI, let me guess--you also have a great plan to provide health care insurance to everyone in the country, you just don't want to discuss it in detail, right?

[jatx]

The sad thing is that this thread has gotten a whole lot more interesting since Thompson left the race!

(I liked him but think he may need to consider a Provigil Rx)

[Retired W4]

Thanks Broadsword. Great recap. Unfortunately, most of the people in this country are focused on something else, like the latest sit-com, reality TV show, or the mall. Many who do talk politics regurgitate the crap spewing forward from the left wing press.

Now it's off to the gun show to do some serious trading. I'll be the one behind the table wearing a red "Support the Troops" sweatshirt.