Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Lan

Why omit the sentence prefacing what you quoted? What I said makes a lot more sense when you read the whole thing.

ya mean THIS part?

Originally Posted by Lan

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. I'd feel much more comfortable knowing my kids attended a school with armed security but we can't afford that right?!

Well, I'm glad you asked
First, I think your first statement is nonsense. And I challenge you to come up with some statistically significant evidence that its true. Statistically significant might be say, 5% of a communities annual crime rate verifiably thwarted by a good guy with a gun.

Second, you're entitled to your own comfort level, so I don't think it is appropriate of me to critique your parenting. If janitors packing heat makes you feel your kids are safe good for you. The same goes for teachers with CCW, armed volunteers "patrolling" and a gun cabinet in the Principal's office.
But, I'll tell you this -- the vast majority of parents in my School District want no part of that and will take steps to prevent it. Those parents who may not like it are welcome to homeschool, go to a private school or move to some little district in Texas. What we have here works. So far. Now if we could make it impossible for a wacko to get their hands on a gun (Momma locks it) that would increase my comfort level. Until then I'll stick with the trained SROs in the Middle and High Schools, the security guy, the cameras, the locked doors, the police who stop by the parking lots, the training and drills conducted, and the dedicated teachers -- who will lock the doors and turn off the lights, and administrators -- who will sound the alarm at the first hint of trouble. Both of whom I believe will stand between my kid and a shooter.
But, that's just me.
Re-read Richard's post he knows a lot more about it than me.


"...we can't afford that right?" A right that guarantees safety in schools? That's not in the Bill.
Or did-ja mean:
"... we can't afford that, right?" You're correct; unless we're willing to give up something else.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

I'm with you, I just want to regulate the insane scumbags who play Call of Duty with guns and live ammo. i think most of those calling for some improvements to our gun laws feel the same way.

Agreed, but the current "solutions" end up regulating me as well as the crazies. I recall many of the folks calling for "reasonable" gun control that will also negatively affect lawful gun owners were losing their collective minds some years ago over the PATRIOT Act, which was aimed at stopping insane scumbags planning to kill civilians with gun and bombs and airplanes but also had a possibility that a small number of non-terror-connected people might lose some of their privacy rights. My how things have changed...or not.

Next time you get in your car look around.
Do you have a driver's license? Mandatory personal training and periodic qualification

I don't recall having to undergo any periodic requalification or training after getting my civilian driver's license several decades ago. Regardless, since driving isn't a Constitutionally-protected right, let's compare apples to apples--which other right from the BOR requires personal training and periodic qualification?

Licence and registration? annual licensing and registration of vehicle

Primarily for tax purposes, since here in CO you don't even need to get an inspection to complete your annual registration--you just have to send in your money. What does that have to do with safety?

Minimum insurance? you are responsible for the damage by you and or your car

So are you saying I'm not responsible for any damage or harm I inflict with my firearms? Woohoo! Reckless neighborhood shooting spree here I come!

Auto emission check? vehicle serviceability and safety check

As stated above, that's a state or local requirement. Even different counties here in CO have different requirements for auto emissions. No federal regulations apply.

One way sign? restrictions on where cars can and cannot go

Again, are you implying there aren't any current restrictions on where I can take or use my guns? Are you sure about that? Really?

Toll booths? limited access

Federal property? GFSZA of 1990? Any business that posts a "no concealed carry" sign?

Speed limit signs? restrictions on how cars can be used

20,000 local, state and federal gun laws restricting how I can use my guns, where and how I can carry them, what guns I can and can't own...

Taxes on gasoline? pays for roads

Gun range and/or club fees to pay for the maintenance of the places where I use my guns.

Highway Patrol and other types of police? Random and ever present enforcement of existing regulations covering drivers and vehicles at state, county, community levels

Highway patrol and other types of police enforcing the existing regulations covering gun owners and guns at state, county and community levels, except just like with auto accidents they are rarely at the exact right time and place to prevent an event; rather, they deal with the aftermath of an event.

Meter maids fair use of temporary storage

Locker fees at my gun club for the fair use of temporary storage.

Seat belt? mandatory driver safety equipment

Built-in keyed action locks, magazine safeties, loaded chamber indicators, grip safeties, firing pin safety blocks, decockers--manufacturer design changes to address safety concerns.

Highway emergency call boxes (not so much anymore but) in place services and recognition that driving is inherently dangerous

Range safety regulations, gun laws addressing where one can shoot, range requirements for eye and hearing protection use, age restrictions on who can purchase firearms and ammunition, mandatory hunter safety classes to obtain a hunting license.

National Highway Safety Board, Department of Transportation? Federal regulation

BATFE, FBI, local/state law enforcement, NFA of 1934, GCA of 1968, FOPA of 1986, GFSZA of 1990, Brady Bill of 1993, AWB of 1994.

Formula One racers? we're not allowed to drive anything we want

NFA of 1934, GCA of 1968, FOPA of 1986--I can't own or use any gun I want.

Need more?

Nope; how 'bout you?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

You don't like the choice of the number "one"?

Would you prefer 2,947? That's the number of children and teens who died from gunfire in 2008.
Or maybe 2,793? That's the number of children who died from gunfire in 2009.
How about 3,625? That is the peak number of child homicides committed in 1993.
Maybe 13,791? that is the number of children and teens who were injured by gunfire in 2009.
I have one more, 20,596. Thats the decade high (2000-2010) the number of kids injured by gunfire in 2008.

Ah yes, the BSN (Big Scary Numbers) defense. You don't happen to have the percentage of those numbers attributable to suicides, do you? How about the number of those deaths where the youth was shot and killed because he/she was engaged in a criminal act? Even better, the number of those kids that were shot by law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties? Without that kind of detailed analysis, tossing out numbers like that has a sort of Dentyne feel to it; you know, a "4 out of 5 liberals think that guns are scary and should be outlawed to make them feel better" sort of ring?

I'm looking for a similar study detailing children who die in traffic.

As for studies on stuff that kills kids, here are a couple of interesting ones that may be worth a look, and have some pretty current statistics:

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...factsheet.html

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafet...factsheet.html

Oddly enough, I haven't heard any calls for cars to be governed so they only go 25 mph, or banning fast sports cars, or mandatory installation of breathalyzers connected to car ignitions, or raising the driving age to 21, or limiting pools to a depth of 2 feet, or mandating anyone within 1000 feet of a body of water wear a life jacket.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,The courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference. if this is the case maybe change is the courageous course.

Then again, maybe no change is the more courageous course? Or perhaps embracing the serenity part is more applicable.

But as I pointed out we do regulate everything regarding the auto industry. In everything else but guns we recognize there are inherent dangers and risks and attempt to reduce and mitigate them. But not guns. (And that is incredible because guns are the only things I can think of designed to kill stuff.)

As I pointed out in a post above, you are completely incorrect that guns are not regulated, just as the statement above that "everything" about the auto industry is regulated, and that the only things designed to kill stuff are guns. What about bows and arrows, blades, poisons, traps, snares, etc.? You know the danger of absolutes, right?

Let me go on record, Me, I'm perfectly fine with any sane US citizen over the age of 18 owning any semi-auto weapon they want as long as it comes with a lock so a nut can't get their hands on it. And since I don't want (or think it will be effective to have) mandatory checks by law enforcement, that sane US citizen 18 years or older can still have any semi-automatic weapon they want as long as they lock it and accept unlimited financial liability for the damage they or their unsecured guns cause.

Cool, common ground! Just so we're clear, you know folks can legally own automatic weapons too, right? Oh, and what if I have a lock, but a nut still gets my gun and uses it for illegal purposes? Will I have unlimited financial liability if someone steals my car and runs down 20 kindergarteners in a playground, too? How 'bout if they steal my credit card, use it to buy stuff to make a bomb and then blow up a church service? Geez, what if someone hacks into my FB account, bullies someone and they commit suicide? Boy, I never realized I was accountable for all this bad stuff.

These despots, who are they?

Don't know who they are yet. What day and time is your house going to burn down? You don't know? Then why do you own smoke detectors and fire extinguishers?

[MR2]

Originally Posted by Lan

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

@Dozer, I think that for most of us, THAT good guy includes the trained SRO and police you mentioned.

[ZonieDiver]

Second, you're entitled to your own comfort level, so I don't think it is appropriate of me to critique your parenting. If janitors packing heat makes you feel your kids are safe good for you. The same goes for teachers with CCW, armed volunteers "patrolling" and a gun cabinet in the Principal's office.

I saw something about an elementary school that had created a place for LEOs to write reports, etc near the school office. Officers in Phoenix frequently stop at Circle K's, etc for bathroom breaks, and I see them in shopping center parking lots doing...well, whatever the hell it is they do there when the two cars are right next to each other facing different directions.

Why not have them pee at schools (in the office's restrooms, smartass ) and write their reports, take their 'coop time' or whatever in school parking lots instead?

I think I've said elsewhere here, that on my latest HS campus - out of 150 or so faculty and staff - there were fewer than 10 I'd feel comfortable around if they were armed. (When I started teaching in 1975, it probably would have been 1/3 to 1/2 of the staff... how times change.)

[tonyz]

Shooters pay some taxes.

Below is some information regarding some of the tax revenue generated by firearm and ammunition sales. The data is merely for one calendar year quarter - in 2011.

The sales data - and consequently the tax revenue generated - for the record sales in 2012 and early 2013 - should be substantially more robust.

Moreover, none of the numbers below reflect state and local sales tax collections on such firearm and ammunition sales (or components) - and such taxes exist in every jurisdiction IIRC - except 5 (OR, MT, NH, DE, AK). State tax rates vary, but can be as high as 7.5 %. However, when you add local rates on top of the overall state rate, what you pay can equal or exceed 9% in a couple of jurisdictions but let's just use an average rate of 6% or 6.5% for discussion purposes only, on each and every purchase of a firearm and ammunition (and component) sold at retail...and remember, that is on top of the excise tax illustrated below.

(Note: certain BATF regulated items would, of course, incur an additional stamp tax on top of the FAET and state and local sales taxes paid and collected).

**********************

Following are the results of the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax (FAET) collections report for the 3rd Quarter Calendar Year 2011. These figures cover the period of July 1, 2011 through Sept. 30, 2011.

Pistols and Revolvers:

$32,082,580.88

Firearms (Other) / Long guns:

$40,449,622.34

Ammunition (shells & cartridges):

$44,225,090.60

TOTAL:

$116,757,293.82


Translation to sales:

Using the latest tax liabilities reported as an indication of sales, a projection of $1.09 billion was generated for the 3rd quarter calendar year of 2011.

Pistols and revolvers: $32,082,580.88 / .10 = $320,825,808.80 = $320.83 million for Pistols and Revolvers

Firearms (other) /Long guns: $40,449,622.34 / .11 = $367,723,839.50 = $367.72 million for Firearms (other)/ Long guns

Ammunition (shells & cartridges): $44,225,090.60 / .11 = $402,046,278.20 = $402.05 million for Ammunition (shells & cartridges)

Total estimation of sales for the quarter: $1,090,595,927.00.

*************

So, for one quarter in 2011...take the FAET tax paid ($116,757,293.82) and project that billion dollars in firearm and ammunition sales and multiply by an average sales tax rate of let's just say 6%...you do the math.

http://www.nssf.org/research/blasts/FAETCQ3_2011.htm

http://taxfoundation.org/article/sta...ates-2011-2013

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

First, I think your first statement is nonsense. And I challenge you to come up with some statistically significant evidence that its true. Statistically significant might be say, 5% of a communities annual crime rate verifiably thwarted by a good guy with a gun.

Here you go:

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[130]

* According to the CDC, there were about 18,498 gun-related accidents that resulted in death or an emergency room visit during 2001[131] (the earliest year such data is available from the CDC[132]). This is roughly 27 times lower than the CDC's 1994 estimate for the number of times Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes.[133]

[Razor]

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

I saw something about an elementary school that had created a place for LEOs to write reports, etc near the school office. Officers in Phoenix frequently stop at Circle K's, etc for bathroom breaks, and I see them in shopping center parking lots doing...well, whatever the hell it is they do there when the two cars are right next to each other facing different directions.

Why not have them pee at schools (in the office's restrooms, smartass ) and write their reports, take their 'coop time' or whatever in school parking lots instead?

ZD, our high school is coordinating with the local PD to do exactly that. They've already set up a protected wireless channel for the police to use, and set aside a physical desk and chair to use if they want to get out of their patrol car for a few minutes. Discussions are currently underway to examine the need to start buying better quality coffee for the teacher's lounge, as well. I for one am very happy to see the school admin taking this kind of pro-active approach to building a relationship with local LE. Of course, I still periodically remind my kids of the various individual action options they need to consider if they're sitting in class and hear gunshots or an explosion close by.

I think I've said elsewhere here, that on my latest HS campus - out of 150 or so faculty and staff - there were fewer than 10 I'd feel comfortable around if they were armed.

Funny, I look the same way at the percentage of the total number of "teachers" at our school that I feel comfortable teaching my kids to an adequate degree of understanding.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Razor

Funny, I look the same way at the percentage of the total number of "teachers" at our school that I feel comfortable teaching my kids to an adequate degree of understanding.

Well, that's one of the main roots of the weed. Probably twice as many teachers are lib compared to otherwise. Nearly all reporters are, same as hollywooders. Musicians, too.

Kids are trained to believe it's OK for Heather to have two mommies, blowjobs aren't really sex, abortion is an easy way out of parental responsibility and the work ethic is a myth.

They rat on bullies instead of punching them in the teeth, and do their fighting on a monitor screen.

It's OK to ridicule Jesus, but don't even say anything negative about Mohammed or Kwanza-you'll be charged with a freaking hate crime.

The communists are winning without firing a shot, just as they said they would.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Well, that's one of the main roots of the weed. Probably twice as many teachers are lib compared to otherwise. Nearly all reporters are, same as hollywooders. Musicians, too.

Kids are trained to believe it's OK for Heather to have two mommies, blowjobs aren't really sex, abortion is an easy way out of parental responsibility and the work ethic is a myth.

They rat on bullies instead of punching them in the teeth, and do their fighting on a monitor screen.

It's OK to ridicule Jesus, but don't even say anything negative about Mohammed or Kwanza-you'll be charged with a freaking hate crime.

The communists are winning without firing a shot, just as they said they would.

Soon someone will be calling for a Prairie Fire.......

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Soon someone will be calling for a Prairie Fire.......

Well, we "got 'em surrounded from the inside", for certain.

[ZonieDiver]

Well, that's one of the main roots of the weed. Probably twice as many teachers are lib compared to otherwise

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but briefly, why did this happen. I assure you, in 1975 (granted it was in then 'rural' Chandler, AZ) over half of our faculty was definitely 'right of center' and at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the staff (which was mostly male - probably 70% - more if you excluded the English and Arts areas) were veterans... with many still actively involved in the NG or USAR.

Did 'they' take over, or did 'we' abdicate that field to 'them'?

I maintain it is as much the latter as it is the former. And for that, shame on 'us'!

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but briefly, why did this happen. I assure you, in 1975 (granted it was in then 'rural' Chandler, AZ) over half of our faculty was definitely 'right of center' and at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the staff (which was mostly male - probably 70% - more if you excluded the English and Arts areas) were veterans... with many still actively involved in the NG or USAR.

Did 'they' take over, or did 'we' abdicate that field to 'them'?

I maintain it is as much the latter as it is the former. And for that, shame on 'us'!

The hippies turned into professors, got tenured, and trained herds of lib teachers. They just emerged around you and other straight-thinkig educators like psilocybin mushrooms in cow patties after a rain.

[The Reaper]

Some interesting stats about firearms accidents (where gun control advocates count felons rightfully shot by LEOs and people up to age 24 as "children").

TR