High Speed Chases

[Surgicalcric]

Here is the result of one...

2001 Nissan 300zx got sandwiched between two 18-wheelers occupants are still in the vehicle.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Crip,
I agree with your post. But training is always an issue. Driving, like shooting, is a perishable skill. I'm talking about DRIVING, not driving. I am a trainer at times and I run 3-4 driving courses a year. I have to schedule two days up front to get me and the AIs in shape to teach the course, and we bring in somebody current to check us out because we don't do it every day. I go as a student. And that's for the basic course.

There's no way that the administrators of these Departments, especially the smaller ones, are sending their guys to Scotti or that two or three times a year. And I would imagine when they do train, it is because it is forced on them and they get the lowest bidder.

Most of these things, including the militarization, I blame on administrators. I pulled that article off of a primarily LEO board. What I thought was interesting was the first comment was "That's SHIT!" Not comments such as those we have here.

I'm all for catching bad guys. But I'm like you "At what price?" I would guess a lot of times, a valid assumption would be "Well yeah, I was going to pull him over for that tailight, but he ran. How do I know he didn't just kill somebody?"

I would guess most Departments don't have access to helos. So they chase or let them go. I don't know, I just thought it was worth discussing. It would be interesting to see the stats.

[NousDefionsDoc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sacamuelas
[B]

WE expect 18-22 year old marines to enter areas under fire from the enemy yet still retain enough composure to not indescriminantly kill every civilian and bad guy in site.

Just the opposite. We expect them to destroy ever bad guy they see and try to keep the collateral to a minimum.

I don't think it is that difficult a thing to teach. FWIW, I would think a soldier being shot at is experiencing a lot more of an adrenaline rush than a cop who wants to drive fast.

Its actually pretty close to the same if you're going fast enough and you can't tell if the shooting is directed specifically at you. At least to me.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Here is the result of one...

2001 Nissan 300zx got sandwiched between two 18-wheelers occupants are still in the vehicle.

See the arm hanging out, roger that part.

Good trick though, since Nissan 300ZX production ended in 1996.

TR

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
...I don't think it is that difficult a thing to teach. FWIW, I would think a soldier being shot at is experiencing a lot more of an adrenaline rush than a cop who wants to drive fast.

Thoughts?

I think you should ride in a cruiser at 120mph while weaving in and out of traffic and record where your mind is at the time.

I would also believe you cant compare target discrimination and to high speed pursuit. I am sure if you ask the officers who have engaged in chases with poor outcomes they would tell they would have never guessed the outcome.

[Sacamuelas]

Yeah.. you got him TR. Caught that liberal media propagandist in his web of lies. Altering photos...shame shame LOL Just kidding James.


NDD- There is a big difference in your driving example and cop chases... in the cop example they are the ones doing the chasing and there is nobody shooting at them or trying to hit them with a RPG!! LOL Not an apples to apples comparison in adrenaline rush I wouldn't think.

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by The Reaper
...Good trick though, since Nissan 300ZX production ended in 1996...TR

Sorry about that. The pic was stolen from the EMS computer here and the folder was titled 2001 300zx high speed chase.

Now that I have looked though all of the pics of it is not even of a 300zx.

[Sacamuelas]

For some reason you guys seem to think that these officers have no choice or control in how fast their vehicle are traveling. Its.. "well you put yourself in the car at 120 mph in a schoolzone and see how much adrenaline is running through you" type arguments that keep being proposed. Noone is saying that they must catch EVERY vehicle that runs. IF they feel that the dirtbag can be followed safely due to the circumstances... then follow him. If you are doing 120 in a nursery parking lot- stop.

That was not the issue... The cop should slow down if warranted because nobody is forcing him to chase. If you can't make the case in your head that doing 120mph when around any traffic or on a two lane road is dangerous, then you are a friggin idiot and should not be a cop. I am not saying they should be able to do whatever they can to push their cars to the limit just to catch someone.
Does anyone feel that the cop is not the one who is in control of his vehicle at all times during a chase??? PLease explain this idea if you do. It baffles me to think that we should strip the responsiblity away from all cops because a few are friggin idiots.

[Surgicalcric]

300's dont have 4 doors

[NousDefionsDoc]

NDD- There is a big difference in your driving example and cop chases... in the cop example they are the ones doing the chasing and there is nobody shooting at them or trying to hit them with a RPG!! LOL Not an apples to apples comparison in adrenaline rush I wouldn't think.

You misunderstand. I have both driven VERY fast and been in the area of shooting going on very near. The rush I got in both cases was similar. I have also had that rush jumping at night and having a problem with the kit.

However, when you KNOW they are shooting at you, as an individual, there is no comparison. I've had that happen as well and I don't like it at all.

[Smokin Joe]

Adernaline it is the same no matter if you are being shot at, driving in a high speed chase, or in a knock down drag out fight. Additionally I know you have all heard of the OODA loop?

Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act

Its the process your brain goes through when the P factor goes up.

You guys have experienced it even if you have never heard of it. It is a physiological process. --So I've read.

We all know what happens when adernaline dumps into your viens, your blood pressure goes up, you get tunnel vision, and your fine motor skills go to crap, all while your trying to decide on what to do next.

As you guys know you can train through this. The first time you did a dynamic entry in a training envirnoment you may have experienced the OODA loop and an adernaline rush. The more dynamic entries you did and the more combat training you got the more confident you became in this skill, and you learned to work through the OODA loop and the adernaline dump. So now you can breach a door throw a flashbang, kill all the bad guys inside, save the hostages, all while sippin a beer. You can do this because of the thousands of hours you spent on the range and in training.

Now let me tell you how much training an average cop gets in prusuit driving its about 40 hours in the basic academy, and thats it for a 20 + year career.

See a problem?

Also NDD I think one of the reasons why you are seeing so much on prusuits now days is b/c the media has turned them into a LIVE ACTION, LATE BREAKING, blah, blah, blah....basically cat chase and everyone wants to see if the guy gets caught. Additionally alot of agencies are adopting a "NO PRUSUIT" policy so unless you KNOW that the guy you are chasing is wanted for a serious or violent crime they get a free pass. B/C of this like TR said the bad guys learn real quick that they can run and you won't chase.

I agree you should risk the lives of every individual out there to chase down the broken tail light w/ a suspended DL. But you also can't let every Tom, Dick, and Harry who decides to run go.

Its a tough call on who do you chase and who do you not. Especially tough call when all of a sudden the guy takes of on you. You mind automatically thinks sh*t this guy just killed someone, I CANNOT let him get away.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Sorry about that. The pic was stolen from the EMS computer here and the folder was titled 2001 300zx high speed chase.

Wonder what else is wrong with it?

I have exceeded 120 by a good bit when I was younger and dumber, broke 125 on a bike, and been shot at a few times.

As Sir Winston Churchill said, "Nothing is so exhilarating in life as to be shot at with no result."

While looking the exact quote up, I also found these, which are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but are good words, nonetheless.

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations"
- Winston Churchill: My Early Life (1930) ch. 9.

"Never in the face of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few."
- Winston Churchill

"In Critical and baffling situations, it is always best to return to first principle and simple action"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

“it so often happens that, when men are convinced that they have to die, a desire to bear themselves well and to leave life’s stage with dignity conquers all other sensations.�
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"I have never accepted what many people have kindly said, namely that I inspired the Nation. It was the nation and the race dwelling around the globe that had the lion heart. I had the luck to be called upon to give the roar"
- Sir Winston Churchill, Speech Nov. 1954.

"There is at least one thing worse than fighting with allies – And that is to fight without them"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it."
- Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the best form of the worst type of government"
- Winston Churchill

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. "
- Winston Churchill

"Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities, because it is the quality that guarantees all others"
- Sir Winston S. Churchill

"A prisoner of war is a man who tries to kill you and fails, and then asks you not to kill him."
- Sir Winston S. Churchill, 1952. (The Observer)

No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account.
- Winston Churchill

"Arm yourselves, and be ye men of valor, and be in readiness for the conflict; for it is better for us to perish in battle than to look upon the outrage of our nation and our altar."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
-Winston Churchill

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terrors. Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"To have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all!...Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill (after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor)

"Britain and France had to choose between war and dishonor. They chose dishonor."
- Prime Minister Winston Churchill

"Sure I am this day we are masters of our fate, that the task which has been set before us is not above our strength; that its pangs and toils are not beyond our endurance. As long as we have faith in our own cause and an unconquerable will to win, victory will not be denied us."
- Winston Churchill

"We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans. We shall fight with growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender."
- Winston Churchill

"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."
- Winston Churchill

I never worry about action, but only inaction.
- Winston Churchill

I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me.
- Winston Churchill

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
- Winston Churchill

Socialism is like a dream. Sooner or later you wake up to reality.
- Winston Churchill

Socialists think profits are a vice; I consider losses the real vice.
- Winston Churchill

Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.
- Winston Churchill

This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill

You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves.
-Winston Churchill

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by The Reaper
...While looking the exact quote up, I also found these, which are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but are good words, nonetheless...

HIJACKED

[AngelsSix]

Funny how we were discussing this very topic today in class. We are currently working on the subject of MVL (Motor Vehicle Law) and the subject of high speed chases came up.
Okay, I could not read through all the thread here, but let me say this: most departments (not all) have what we call pursuit or apprehension policies. Depending on the agencies policy determines whether you will chase or not. Also, above certain speeds and through certain areas, the ranking officer MAY CALL OFF THE CHASE AT ANY TIME. The officer INITIATING the pursuit has to use some some discression (sp?) as to whether it is safe for him or her to continue.
Here's my take on it: depending on the violation, if you have a good description of the vehicle, occupants and a tag number, why chase the dude?? He wants you to chase him, most of those out in LA are done on purpose, with the offenders knowing that they will be on t.v.
This is why helicopters are great tools. We can also use cameras (traffic cams) to aid us. We will get the guy eventually. So maybe he gets away today, we will get him sooner or later, count on it.

[Guy]

Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Adernaline it is the same no matter if you are being shot at, driving in a high speed chase, or in a knock down drag out fight. Additionally I know you have all heard of the OODA loop?

Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act

Its the process your brain goes through when the P factor goes up.

You guys have experienced it even if you have never heard of it. It is a physiological process. --So I've read.

There is a BIG difference between driving fast and being shot at!

When I'm at work. I drive fast ALL of time because speed is security. The adrenaline is barely noticable.

Now being shot at...rocketed or mortored! The adrenaline rush went thru the roof!

Reading about it is one thing...well, you know the rest.