Malfunctions...how do you remediate???

[Spartan359]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Do things fall up in your world?

TR

Negative.

[Endorphin Rush]

Ok, I had just returned from a rather lengthy run last night before posting...the endorphins must have made me high as hell. So...now in a much more lucid state let me make some sense.

First off, if the weapon is known to be empty...as NDD stated, "Just change mags and let 'er eat".

As CoLawman described, for clearing simple malfunctions (ie., stove pipe malfunctions) Tap Rack Bang is the method I'm describing. Tap Rack Ready is a slight variation taught by our firearms instructors to overcome the tendency for the masses who would believe that they have to shoot, the BANG portion of the drill, just because it's part of the drill.

And, lastly, Razor is correct in interpreting my description of the method for clearing double feed malfuntions. He is also correct in catching the fact that a TAP is not necessary. My mistake...

And Team Sergeant, no, not "Real Combat"...I believe it was "Airsoft Warfare".
Actually, it was Gunsite.

Hollis, the Gonzalez course was for Law Enforcement.

That being said, though the bruises from this beating are fresh and painful, I'm feeling the love.


Team Sergeant, how do you suggest clearing double feed malfuntions if they were to ever occur???

[Endorphin Rush]

Let me clarify...the methods I am describing are not those taught by Gonzales. I was looking to see how everyone else was clearing their malfunctions in comparison to what I've been taught previously.

[Team Sergeant]

ER,

If/when you attend these courses and fail to ask “why” someone does something then you will be getting “more” than you paid for. As for Gunsite, I happen to know one of the instructors there and even he asks questions.

Also I've seen “defensive tactics” instructors push a technique that were absolute bullshit, when called on it they could not defend its use or tried the old “baffle’em with bullshit” approach.

Case in point, a Phoenix LEO and friend of mine just attended an explosive breaching course somewhere in Texas. This course was advertised as an LEO and military breaching school. The friend of mine called during the first day and asked me;

“Do you guys (Special Forces) use gunpowder charges to breach obstacles?” After was done laughing I told him, “Why of course! We hate using the sophisticated chemical explosives specially designed to breach doors and walls! Get a grip!”

He and his pals left the course.

If you think something is bullshit, it probably is, and should be closely examined.

Read the bios of those teaching you, ask about their credetionals. If the bio is “Twenty five year Air Force veteran” think for a second, who in the AF is engaged in “ground combat” or any ground combat training for that matter???? Become aware, become informed or be prepared to spend money on worthless training. I've even read bios that stated that the person “served with” a Special Forces unit, what it didn’t tell you was that he was a cook in the SF unit.

I personally busted a guy in Scottsdale that runs a gun club. In his online bio he stated he was former member of Naval Special Operations and he had personally trained just about EVERY Fed agency, state local and Special Operations unit in the US military. What it didn't state was the FACT that he had FAILED out of the Navel Special Operations course and left the Navy with only four months time served. The POS actually had that in his bio. He was made to remove his bio, but he’s rich beyond imagination because even with his bio now gone the locals here have yet to make the connection to his bullshit.

Before you attend Billy-Bob’s advanced fancy school of shooting, take a few minutes to read their bios, do not listen to your buddy with two years on the PD telling you “That was Great Training, Best I've ever had!”

Billy –Bob cares about one thing, taking monies from people. Does Billy –Bob care he has no formal training? Hell no, he’ll simply make it up! I find it amusing when Billy –Bob has ZERO in the way of formal training, but he’s sporting a COUNTER-TERRORIST and SPECIAL OPERATION credetionals in his profile as a shooting instructor. (There is no such thing as a "civilian" counter-terrorist school. At least none that I'm aware of, so you tell me where a civilian acquires such training to place on his profile? Funny, I just read such a bio in a shooting magazine just last month, a civilian with no military back ground with Special Operations and Counter-Terrorism in his "Instructor" bio.)

You are a LEO, do some LEO shit and find out about these people before you attend their courses!

[NousDefionsDoc]

TS is right on as always. I have a saying when training the trainer, "If you don't know why you are doing/teaching whatever, STOP until you find out."

To me, there are few things less professional than waffling when asked "Why?" by a stud.

When one of mine proposes something and I can't think of a good reason right off for not doing it, I say, "Well let's lay out the tape and run it and see what happens." If it's not a valid TTP, they usually come to that conclusion on their own.

[NousDefionsDoc]

If it's something like reloads or malfunctions, I have them run their technique against a couple of us. When they see how much slower it is or more complicated, it usually goes away - quietly.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Endorphin Rush

That being said, though the bruises from this beating are fresh and painful, I'm feeling the love.


Team Sergeant, how do you suggest clearing double feed malfuntions if they were to ever occur???

To answer your question:

I cannot recall, seeing, or having a double feed while using a .45 that could not be cleared by using the method I've described. (A .45, most of them anyway, do not actually and cannot actually "double feed", they're too damn big a bullet to do that. Not really the same as a real double feed on an M-4. Damn, might some defensive tactics instructor be using/instructing a malfunction drill used for a M-4 and thinking it will also work on a .45 handgun????? Say it isn'so )

It may not work for every handgun on the market ,but then I only use handguns I'd bet my life on.......

TS

BTW, I'm happy to see you can "take the beating" we dish out. I like LEO's and it is my desire to make you guys better at what you do.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

To answer your question:

I cannot recall, seeing, or having a double feed while using a .45 that could not be cleared by using the method I've described. (A .45, most of them anyway, do not actually and cannot actually "double feed", they're too damn big a bullet to do that. Not really the same as a real double feed on an M-4. Damn, might some defensive tactics instructor be using/instructing a malfunction drill used for a M-4 and thinking it will also work on a .45 handgun????? Say it isn'so )

It may not work for every handgun on the market ,but then I only use handguns I'd bet my life on.......

TS

BTW, I'm happy to see you can "take the beating" we dish out. I like LEO's and it is my desire to make you guys better at what you do.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

There is not enough room in the feed area of any .45 ACP handgun I have ever used, to hold two .45 rounds at the same time.

I suppose that if you had a complete extractor failure, then a round (or case) could remain in the chamber while another was on the feed ramp, but I do not think that it would completely leave the feed lips of the mag.

TR

[swatsurgeon]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but bear with me....
the origin of the tap-rack, etc.... MAY have been with the advent of plastic/polymer mags that , like the early glocks, were not 'drop-free' and the operator (civilian) may not have known if the mag was properly seated. The weapons used by TS, TR, NDD all likely have metal mags and if not seated are on the deck, therefore they would know it was seated properly sice the gun goes bang (or for TS, BOOM).
I agree with all previous statements made by the QP's here and having seen it from both sides, i.e., LEO, SEALS, "experts" and then having the TS get hold of me, I can tell you he/they are right.
How many LEO's at any range, home or away go to fire and have the "DEAD MAN CLICK"? No round in the chamber. My own SWAT team on the last workout had 2 officers do it.....loudest sound you ever hear before you get shot....and they are 'professionals'.
Feeling the pain being dished out here is nothing compared to the pain of me the Trauma Surgeon operating on you for a GSW.....

just my 2 cents.

ss

[NousDefionsDoc]

I press check my weapons - all of them - before I call them loaded. Old habits die hard I guess. How I do it depends on the weapon, but I gots to see shiney brass in the chamber before I call myself jocked up. I think odds are if it loaded the first round from the mag and one doesn't do anything silly to it in the interval, the mag is seated. I don't use my magazines for forearm grips and I don't fiddle fart around with my pistol in the holster after I put it away. I don't pull on them to see if they are seated. And I don't have problems with the mag coming unseated.

[CoLawman]

Failure to feed. I have noticed in the civilian world, magazine are ignored as if they have some sort life time maintainence design from the manufacture. I have only seen military folks talking magazines apart for cleaning, inspecting and lubrication. Magazines need love and care too!

That has not been my experience.

I have seen magazine stick causing a failure to feed from improper maintenance, dirt, damaged or wierd loading (ie; jamming 22 rds in a 20 rd mag). The simpliest solution is what has been suggested, drop it, and insert a new mag.

Not to belabor the point, but this does not relieve one from having to "RACK".

The TRB method was designed to address all occurrences. No need to learn several techniques when one covers all the bases. Sure.......a TAP may not have been needed..........due to failure to charge the weapon. But IF the magazine was not seated then you can charge all day.

I have thought and thought and thought, but cannot come up with a common occurrence in which this method does not work.

Simplicity and Success

TAP: Just in case the mag is not seated or... see Hollis' comment above about sticking mag.
RACK: Clears the jam, stove pipe, loads an empty weapon, discharges a dud, ad infinitum.
BANG: You are back in the fight.

Endorphin's first post is an example of why "One Technique".

It is easy to teach and remember.

78,300 hits when one searches TRB. I noticed several where people are arguing against this method. They have inserted "their" variations. One was Tap Rap...... Assess and Then Bang. What the.......????

[Peregrino]

TRB solves the most problems for the most people. So long as whoever teaches it includes TS' invert move to clear the chamber. It does not require fine motor skills, it can be programmed as a reflex, it is very efficient, and it puts an effective/proven technique that can be taught quickly in the hands of as many people as are willing to learn it. Efficiency is extremely important when teaching large numbers of people. It is equally important when being shot at. One technique that can be applied to 90+ % of the malfunctions that might be encountered is a lot better than having five different techniques that together cover everything and wasting the time deciding which one to use. If you have a malfunction that can't be solved with TRB maybe it's time to initiate the "E" part of your PACE Plan and run away (i.e. look for cover). BTW - If the gun's empty, it's not a malfunction, it's time to reload. Stress does horrible things to people's brains. Slow down, quit panicking, realize the slide is locked back, and reload (another drill the pundits complicate beyond reason). My .02 - Peregrino

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I press check my weapons - all of them - before I call them loaded.

Ditto,

Before any pistol gets holstered for wear I press check it. Long guns get pressed checked before the business begins.

[Gene Econ]

Guys:

Quite interesting thread. I was getting worried that I was reducing the rare stoppage in one of my 1911's the wrong way for twenty five years. I never figured there were four or five ways to do this depending on the situation and am happy that sane people here, both my SF comerades and others, confirmed for me that I have been doing this simple task correctly all along! How could I have figured this out without having to attend a shooting academy I wonder? He, he, he.

I do have a serious question though.

One of you all mentioned the 'double feed' situation that seemed to plague the M-4 carbine for quite a while. Not really a true 'double feed' but I know exactly what you are talking about. Expended cartridge jammed between the bolt and the receiver and one round kind of hung up whilst attempting to get into the chamber. Can't say I have ever seen this with the M-16A1 or A2 but I have seen it more times than I can count with the issued M-4.

I am curious if anyone has a 'reduce a stoppage' drill for this particular circumstance. Those of you who have seen this know that you can't pull the charging handle back, the bolt is part way in the buffer spring tube so you can't shotgun the carbine, and you can't force the bolt shut either. Aside from shooting the M-4 with your pistol, what are your 'reduce a stoppage' drills for this particular type of failure to function on the M-4?

Gene

[Peregrino]

Gene - Transition to handgun! The only thing I've ever seen/done that half-way worked as an IAD was to dump the magazine first thing before racking the bolt. It gives a little more room for things to fall free if it hasn't wedged tight. Then reload off your rack/LBE. Using the MILSTD SPORTS usually makes things worse and really jams things in place. I had a carbine that did this regularly (diagnosed extractor problem) that seems to work now that I've had my gunsmith fix the gas system, swap bolts and add an O-ring to the extractor spring. (Expensive name brand upper too - made it even more annoying.) My .02 - FWIW Peregrino