Eval: POF Gas Piston, M4 type upper

[POF-USA]

Originally Posted by SERPENT5XX

Gene,

The breaks both occurred on the previously installed conventional direct gas uppers.

If I remember correctly they both occurred while at Mid-South Institute of Self-defense Shooting (MISS). There are several ranges at MISS where the potential to fire many rounds of ammo exists while completing the course of fire. I have also seen several M4's break in comparable ways over the years in Kuwait while doing CQB flat range training. This mostly happened in the summer months due to the ambient air temperature along with the high round count drills. This high rate of fire was often more than the conventional M4 type gas system could endure. (We tried to fix this by going with the heavier profile M4 barrel)

Anyway when you fire a conventional M4 type upper hot gases are funneled from the barrel through the gas tube and into the gas key on the bolt carrier group. This is what causes the gun to cycle. These hot gasses make the bolt and bolt carrier very hot. Heat, or more importantly the constant heating and cooling of metal causes it to fail long before it would if it was not subject to that abusive environment.

Next time you go to the range shoot a couple of mags through your M4, then pull out the bolt carrier group and hold it in your hand....ouch!! Now do it with a piston driven upper. I have fired 3-4 mags as fast as I could pull the trigger on my POF gun and then pulled the bolt carrier out....barely warm. I could hold it to my face. Also there was a significant lack of carbon crud on the POF bolt for the same reason.

This lack of carbon and heat in the POF gun is because the piston system does not spray hot gas directly into the chamber to run the gun.

Are you familiar with the FN FAL? It uses a similar method. I believe that this lack of hot gas being sent directly into the chamber will lead to an extended weapon life as well as added reliability in the piston systems. POF, HK, what ever M4 type weapon with this system will have this benefit inherently due to the system of operation, brand name aside.

I hope this clarifies my post for you.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

Thank you.
Your 100% correct. From a engineering stand point, "HEAT" is the biggest issue and is the reason we manufactured and first displayed our gas piston uppers at the 2004 Shot Show. A weapon system number one priority, must first be RELIABILE.


Here's some spec's / information on our shortest gas piston system.

O.C.C. (Offensive Compact Carbine) SPECIFICATION:
Barrel:
• 9.25” Heavy contour, Fluted to reduce weight and Heat
• 4150 Mil-B-1159F Vanadium Alloy (mil-spec, machinegun rated)
• Chrome Lined, and Manganese phosphate
• 5 groove (“5R” Polygonal), right-handed 1x7 twist, button rifled (Rock Creek Barrel Blank)
• Vortec, A2, or Krink Flash hiders

Chamber:
• 5.56 x 45mm Nato (.223 Cal.)

Method of Operation:
• Gas Piston operated, rotating bolt
• C.R.O.S. (Corrosion Resistant Operating System)

(Chrome plated: Barrel, Gas Block/Tube, Gas Plug, Gas Piston, Bolt Carrier Assembly)

Bolt & Carrier:
• Chrome plated 8620 steel bolt carrier, heat treated / plated per Mil Spec.
• Chrome plated steel bolt, heat treated, to Mil-spec
Sights:
• Fixed removable A2 front sight assembly

Weight:
• Empty – 6 3/8 lbs

Length:
• Extended - 30.25”
• Collapsed - 26”

•Fixed “Stubby” stock: 26”

Upper Receiver:
• A3 Flattop, Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• P4 feed ramp cuts in receiver

Lower Receiver:
• Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• Semi-auto trigger and Full-auto (LEO/Military Only)
• Ambi-selector

Stock:
• Retractable 6 position stock

Handguards:
• Oval carbine length (plastic), w/heat sheilds
• Predator tactical rail system™



Here are our results when chrono testing our O.C.C. gas piston 9.25" upper.
The barrel used was a Rock Creek 1:7 4150 Vanadium barrel blank. The "5R" should increase
the FPS average to 2400 FPS.


9 ¼ POF Chrono Data

Conditions: Sunny Temp 90F
Equipment: CED Millennium Chronograph

9 1/4" w/Vortex
Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2506,2439,2463,2486,2450 Ave 2468fps
BH 77gr- 2317,2306,2339,2332,2331 Ave 2325fps


9 1/4" w/Krink 7.62 cone
Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2447,2413,2406,2444,2419 Ave 2425fps
BH 77gr- 2315,2298,2309,2307,2305 Ave 2306fps


We compared our O.C.C. to a RRA 16.5" upper.
Rock River 16.5"

Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2889,2905,2911,2890,2885 Ave 2896fps
BH 77gr- 2674,2682,2681,2673 Ave 2677fps


Same weight and lenght of MP-5 but alot more PUNCH!
http://www.pof-usa.com/OSC%20WEAPON,...%20Uzi%201.JPG

Our O.C.C. with retractable stock and optional Krink flash hider. (right side view)
http://www.pof-usa.com/DSC01423.JPG

Our O.C.C. with retractable stock and optional Krink flash hider. (left side view)
http://www.pof-usa.com/DSC01417.JPG

Piture of our very simple, hard chrome plated gas piston operating system.
*Notice the flute barrel (to reduce heat and weight), and our barrel nut design which acts like a heat sink also to reduce heat.*
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/Gas%20P...0Parts%202.jpg


Our gas piston upper fit on ALL mil-spec lowers. Just specify if you want a semi or full auto carrier. Barrel length's we offer currently are 9.25", 11.5" 14.5", and 16". We try our best to offer the best quailty products at the best value to the customer.
Best regards,

Frank
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. (POF-USA)
www.POF-USA.com


PS: Not sure how to add pic's, but I added the links to the pictures for your review.

[The Reaper]

Frank:

You are promoting your product on our board.

Before doing that, it would be nice if you filled out your profile and introduced yourself here.

TR

[POF-USA]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Frank:

You are promoting your product on our board.

Before doing that, it would be nice if you filled out your profile and introduced yourself here.

TR

Sorry.
Trying to provide spec's and information regarding our system on the discussion of our system.

I'll try to modify my account. Wish me luck.
Best regards,

Frank

[Ambush Master]

As I stated earlier I have just recently purchased an upper, but I'm still waiting for the Full-Auto Bolt Carrier !! I do own a Legal M16A1. Mark Kinsler (SOG Armory) is supposed to be getting me the carrier.

I can't wait to try this one in Group Therapy Mode !! Do you recommend any change to the recoil spring, as in a stronger or weaker spring??

Later
Martin

[SERPENT5XX]

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by SERPENT5XX

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

I wouldn't say he's in trouble, came close, but not there. He was just answering a question that he is definitely qualified to answer. Now that the formalities are out of the way, I'm looking forward to possibly trying a Surefire Can on this Upper !!!!

Later
Martin

[POF-USA]

Originally Posted by SERPENT5XX

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

Thank you.
I don't want to get into any trouble here.
I just wanted to make sure all readers knew the spec's of our gas piston uppers.
Thanks again for the kind words of our product.
Best regards,

Frank
Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA)

[SERPENT5XX]

Frank,

Easy buddy, we still like ya, and we really love your rifle.



SERPENT5XX

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

I just returned from a two week stint at Mid-South Institute were I fired approximately another 1500 rounds out of my 16 inch POF upper. No malfunctions of any kind, it ran like a sewing machine. The part I still like best is that maintenance is a breeze compared to a gas M4. After that many rounds I basically I wiped down the bolt and ran some copper solvent down the barrel and I was done. My pistols, now that is another story!!

Take care,

SERPENT5XX

[Specat572]

Gentelmen,
I am one of the PHALANX Group guys(SERPENT5XX's Business Partner). Just a quick update on the POF weapons we have been pushing everywhere we travel.

The company is currently changing the anodizing process of their uppers and lowers, so this ultimately means slight 'backorder' delays. The head of the company, Frank Desomma and his 2IC brother Chris, have said anyone ordering online may see up to a six week dealy because of the change over.
After speaking with Chris Desomma two days ago, he says the delay times have been 'padded' a little but thinks he can provide a little sooner. Bottom line...it is still worth the wait for this upper or complete weapon(see SERPENT5XX's original posting on the subject). I purchased two of the 16" uppers:P-415-16-P4X-CF ,16" GAS PISTON UPPER W/PREDATOR RAIL SYSTEM, Troy industries flip up front and rear sights. Sent one into Iraq for a best friend (ODA 572 TM SGT) to eval for POF in real world conditions and the other as a gift for a brother still in 5th grp getting ready to retire.

I will caveat all of this with the fact the POF is in it for the right reasons- 1) the guy just thought he could make a better gun. Check that block because he has. 2) The man is a great American and wants to help out those in our line of work, i.e. military, police, trainers, and guys still doing the deal as contractors.
I have yet to come across an individual who at first touch of this gun does not immediately want to purchase it, then they fire it and want two or three in various lenghts and configurations.

The great thing for me is I live ten minutes from POF's doorstep and visit the guys once or twice a week. SERPENT5XX and myself stand to gain no profit from these guys, if that thought had crossed any minds. We just really believe out of everything we have owned, fired, borrowed, whatever, that this is the one to have.

If you hold Quiet Proffesional status here, PM myself or SERPENT5XX and we will get you connected directly with POF for a great deal. Will explain in my PM reply......

Thank you all,

Specat572 sends

[Specat572]

Frank,
I tried to post some pics of your weapon over in IRAQ.....files were too darn big. Sorry brother.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Specat572

The great thing for me is I live ten minutes from POF's doorstep and visit the guys once or twice a week.
Specat572 sends

So when you taking me over there?

Send me the pictures and I'll resize them.

JD@professionalsoldiers.com

TS

[Specat572]

Sorry, I didn't see your posting on the 9th.....I will be heading over there today (friday) with another PXG guy to talk a little business that Frank would be interested in.

Give me a call, will go next week specifically to introduce you if you can't make a link up today

Specat572

[Sindervhit]

I've been interested in these uppers since I first ran into them on ar15.com discussions. The question I have is doesn't the Predator rail sit higher then the standard flat top system? My thinking is that this would change your POA or at least change the type of sights you have to use or something...obviously this isn't the case otherwise it would have been addressed by now...can someone here explain to me how the higher rail doesn't affect POA or POI?
Thanks.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Sindervhit

I've been interested in these uppers since I first ran into them on ar15.com discussions. The question I have is doesn't the Predator rail sit higher then the standard flat top system? My thinking is that this would change your POA or at least change the type of sights you have to use or something...obviously this isn't the case otherwise it would have been addressed by now...can someone here explain to me how the higher rail doesn't affect POA or POI?
Thanks.

Anything that slightly raises the sight plane of the M-4 would be a welcome development. If you have noticed most of the current optics now being used are sitting very high on all the current rail systems, ever wonder why that is? Ever wonder why the iron sights don't sit that high? Has everyone on those other boards forgotten where the iron sights were on a M-16A1? The answers are very simple.

Edit to add: I will answer this one for you, the higher rail will have zero impact on your POA and POI. Now if you would be so kind to please explain your definition POA an POI to me?

Also a few more things to ponder, you mentioned a few other online boards, they sell products and advertising. Fair and impartial product review, I think not…… Go over to a Glock board and try selling the 1911 or vise versa. It’s called situational awareness. I can tell you what to think, you need to learn how to think.

Team Sergeant