Oh Lord

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by skipjack

Hey, what's wrong with Engineers?

engineers measure things with a micrometer...surveyors mark it with chalk...contractors cut it with an axe...

[skipjack]

lol.... lksteve, I like that! Only I am an Electrical Engineer so I measure things in nanometers...

-skipjack

[Cincinnatus]

Reminds me of an observation my father (an amateur cabinet maker) often makes, "Carpenter's measure to the neares eighth of an inch, cabinet makers to the nearest thirty second of an inch, boat builders measure to the nearest boat."

[Jimbo]

A very good friend of mine who used to work in the intelligence community took a job with the FBI because he was sick of sitting behind a desk. He bought into their line about FBI being a cutting edge counter-terrorism agency and how that was their new focus, blah, blah, blah. He specialized in transnational crime, proliferation and terrorism. He is a Naval Academy grad, former Marine infantry officer, has his Masters from Monterey and speaks Arabic, German and Spanish at 3/3. He also taught a class at JMITC on asymmetric warfare. He won their top gun award in training. His top choices for assignment were New York, Boston, Miami, Washington.

Where did he end up?

Iowa.

Excellent use of resources. Two years in, he is sick of going after kiddie porn, meth labs and hydroponics and will likely leave the FBI. I wish he was an exception, but I know he is not.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

A very good friend of mine who used to work in the intelligence community took a job with the FBI because he was sick of sitting behind a desk. He bought into their line about FBI being a cutting edge counter-terrorism agency and how that was their new focus, blah, blah, blah. He specialized in transnational crime, proliferation and terrorism. He is a Naval Academy grad, former Marine infantry officer, has his Masters from Monterey and speaks Arabic, German and Spanish at 3/3. He also taught a class at JMITC on asymmetric warfare. He won their top gun award in training. His top choices for assignment were New York, Boston, Miami, Washington.

Where did he end up?

Iowa.

Excellent use of resources. Two years in, he is sick of going after kiddie porn, meth labs and hydroponics and will likely leave the FBI. I wish he was an exception, but I know he is not.

Brutal.

[Roguish Lawyer]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...home-headlines

2 Men Held in Links to Terror
FBI arrests father and son shortly after the younger man returns from overseas, where he allegedly trained at an Al Qaeda camp.

By Greg Krikorian and Rone Tempest, Times Staff Writers

LODI, Calif. — FBI agents have arrested a man and his father after the son allegedly admitted attending Al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan that taught participants "how to kill Americans," federal authorities said Tuesday.

In a case that was still unfolding, officials confirmed that Hamid Hayat, 23, and his father, Umer, 47, were taken into custody Sunday. Authorities said late Tuesday that they were still trying to determine whether the arrests represented the discovery of a small network of Al Qaeda sympathizers operating in the agricultural town of Lodi, 40 miles south of Sacramento.

The arrests came days after the younger man was discovered aboard a San Francisco-bound plane even though his name appeared on a "No Fly" list of suspected extremists.

At the time, according to an FBI affidavit, Hayat was returning to the U.S. after having visited Pakistan.

According to the affidavit, he told agents that after attending Al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan in 2003 and 2004, he was given his pick of where to carry out his terrorist mission.

"Hamid advised that he specifically requested to come to the United States to carry out his jihadi mission," the affidavit says. "Potential targets for attack would include hospitals and large food stores."

While Hayat and his father remained in custody on charges of lying to federal authorities, family members denied that the ice cream truck driver or his son, who works in a fruit-packing plant, had any links to terrorism.

"The charges are totally false," said a female cousin of Hayat who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The family lives in a one-story house a block from Lodi's mosque.

The cousin said Hayat's most recent trip to Pakistan had nothing to do with terrorism.

Rather, she said, he went with his mother to arrange some marriages and visit relatives.

Hayat is the oldest of four children and was born in Lodi, according to the cousin. He went to Pakistan at the age of 9 "to memorize the holy Koran," she said.

Dozens of FBI agents arrived at the home early Tuesday, family members said, and seized videocassettes, photographs, fax machines, prayer books and other items.

Federal authorities declined to provide details about the case.

"All I can say is that this investigation is continuing," Sacramento FBI spokesman John Cauthen said.

But other law enforcement sources suggested Tuesday that the arrests followed a lengthy investigation by federal counterterrorism officials and would result in other arrests.

"These guys have been on the radar for awhile," said one official, referring to the Hayats. "And this case has more to it than just these two guys."

According to the seven-page FBI affidavit that was unsealed Tuesday, Sacramento FBI officials were first contacted at 5:30 a.m. on May 29, with information from FBI headquarters that Hayat would attempt to enter the U.S. later that day on a flight from Korea that was bound for San Francisco International Airport.

Sacramento Agent Pedro Tenoch Aguilar, in the affidavit, said authorities determined Hayat was en route to the U.S. despite being on a "No Fly" list.

The plane, according to Aguilar's statement, was diverted and allowed to land in Japan for refueling.

[Seth]

Breaking story, not yet on national news leads:



SACRAMENTO (AP) — Federal authorities arrested a father and son
after the younger man allegedly acknowledged that he attended an
al-Qaida camp in Pakistan to learn “how to kill Americans,”
according to published reports.

Hamid Hayat and his father, Umer Hayat, 47, were arrested over the weekend on charges of lying to federal agents, FBI agent John Cauthen confirmed to The Associated Press on Tuesday night.

The men both made a brief appearance in U.S. District Court in Sacramento on Tuesday and are being held in Sacramento County Jail.

According to prosecutors, Hamid Hayat trained to use explosives and other weapons, using photographs of President Bush as targets. The Sacramento Bee reported his age as 22; the Los Angeles Times said he is 23.

Umer Hayat was charged in the complaint with lying about his
son’s involvement and his own financing of the terror camp. Hisattorney, Johnny Griffin III, called the allegations “shocking” but said his client “is charged with nothing more than lying to an agent.”

The detained men are both U.S. citizens. U.S. Magistrate Judge Peter A. Nowinski denied a bail request for the elder Hayat, saying he was “a flight risk and a danger to the community.”

“He just returned from Pakistan where he built a new home and contributed financial assistance to an al-Qaida sponsored program training his son and others to kill Americans whenever and wherever
they can be found,” the Bee quoted Nowinski as saying.

Hamid Hayat’s attorney was not present for the court hearing, and Nowinski set a bail hearing for him on Friday.

Two other Lodi men, Shabbir Ahmed and Mohammed Adil Khan, are being detained on immigration violations, Cauthen said. He said he couldn’t give any further details, citing an ongoing investigation.

Ahmed is the current imam and Khan is the former imam of a mosque in Lodi, the Lodi News-Sentinel reported on its Web site. The men were detained after meeting separately with Umer Hayat on Saturday, the Bee reported. Hamid Hayat, who was born in California, recently returned to the state from Pakistan. After first denying any link to terrorist camps, Hayat reportedly told agents that he attended al-Qaida camps in 2003 and 2004.

“Hamid advised that he specifically requested to come to the United States to carry out his jihadi mission,” according to the affidavit. “Potential targets for attack would include hospitals and large food stores.”

FBI agents raided the Hayat home on Tuesday, family members told
the Times. They seized videocassettes, photographs, fax machines, prayer books and other items.

Hamid Hayat was on the federal “no fly” list and FBI
authorities in Sacramento were alerted by headquarters on May 29 that he was attempting to fly from Korea to San Francisco, the newspapers reported.

The plane was diverted to Japan, where Hayat was interviewed by
the FBI and denied any connection to terrorism before being allowed to fly back to California.

On June 3, he was interviewed by agents in Sacramento and denied attending any terrorist camps. After a polygraph test the next day
showed deception in his answers, Hayat acknowledged spending six months at a training camp in Pakistan in 2003 and 2004, the affidavit said.

Umer Hayat also at first denied that his son went to a terrorist
camp but later admitted that he provided a $100 monthly allowance to help his son attend the camp, according to the affidavit.

AP-WS-06-08-05 0452EDT

[SITH]

AQ has breached the wire,... RIGHT IN MY BACKYARD!!!!

I have spoken to some Pakistanis, here at work, that have known the father for a number of years. All have an admiration for the father. Consensus is that he was a good man who got caught into his sons web. IE: 1 Pakistani, who has known him for 16 years, did mention that he was giving $$$$ to his son while the boy was away at terrorist camp, approx $100 a month....IMO "You are either with us or against us" rings true to this day.

The father was the ice cream delivery man for the neighborhood. I have bought ice cream from him, in front of my house nonetheless, on several occasions. Seemed like a very respectful and kind man. That being said and presuming that some of my money could have went to the son, I am PISSED and I hope that he is executed in a slow and painful manner.

[Roguish Lawyer]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...home-headlines

Ties to Terror Camps Probed
An investigation of Pakistani Americans' alleged links to foreign training centers expands beyond Lodi. A fifth person is detained.

By Rone Tempest, Greg Krikorian and Lee Romney, Times Staff Writers

LODI, Calif. — Immigration officials in Sacramento detained a fifth person Wednesday as part of what authorities described as a widening investigation of a group of Pakistani Americans and recent immigrants, some of whom allegedly attended terrorist training camps.

The initial arrests of a Northern California father and son with alleged terrorist connections were the result of a several-year investigation focused on the Muslim community of this Central Valley agricultural center, an FBI official said Wednesday.

"We believe from our investigation that various individuals connected to Al Qaeda have been operating in the Lodi area in various capacities, including individuals who have received terrorist training abroad," said Sacramento FBI chief Keith Slotter.

Umer Hayat, a 47-year-old ice-cream truck driver, and his 22-year-old son Hamid Hayat, a worker at a fruit packing plant, were charged with making false statements to federal investigators after being arrested Sunday. Three others were detained on immigration violations.

Defense attorney Johnny L. Griffin III, a former federal prosecutor representing the father, said the relatively minor nature of the charges does not justify the amount of attention the government is giving the case.

Umer Hayat "is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials," Griffin said. "This is painting a picture with a broad brush."

At an arraignment Tuesday, a U.S. magistrate ordered Umer Hayat held without bail. Hamid Hayat is to be arraigned Friday.

The government's record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished. After the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, for example, FBI fingerprint experts erroneously identified a Portland, Ore., attorney as a suspect. Spanish police had questioned the accuracy of the fingerprint match. A federal judge in Portland later dismissed the case, and agents apologized to the attorney, Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim convert.

In a Detroit case, federal officials announced charges against three North African men with great fanfare in 2001. After the government initially won convictions, the cases fell apart and were eventually dismissed.

At a news conference in Sacramento, Slotter said the bureau in the latest case had no details about specific plans for terrorist acts.

"We do not possess information concerning exact plans or timing of specific targets of opportunity," Slotter said. "It has been reported that certain institutions such as hospitals and food stores were targeted. We do not have information that these or any other sectors in the United States have been primarily targeted or are specifically vulnerable to attack."

Slotter disclosed that the younger Hayat, who was born in the United States but studied for years at his grandfather's religious school in Pakistan, has been "under investigation for an extended period of time."

An FBI official in Washington confirmed that the arrests were part of a broader investigation into suspected Islamic militants within the Pakistani community in the United States, including Lodi. He said he could not discuss details of the probe or its findings to date, given the sensitivity of U.S.-Pakistani counterterrorism efforts.

Details about the direction of the federal probe were contained in an affidavit released Tuesday in which the younger Hayat allegedly told federal agents that he attended a terrorist camp in Pakistan for six months in 2003-04 and was instructed on attacking targets in the United States.

Included in the training, Hamid Hayat reportedly told agents, was target practice using pictures of President Bush.

Umer Hayat allegedly told investigators that he also toured camps operated by Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khalil, a family friend who once headed an organization identified by U.S. officials as a terrorist group. Both men allegedly made the statements after first denying any terrorist links.

Despite the FBI affidavit, family members in Lodi contend that the terrorist allegations are false. Salma Hayat, the mother of Hamid Hayat, said she was with him in their ancestral village of Hazro in the northern part of Pakistan's Punjab province while he allegedly was at the training camp.

A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. "He was with his mom the whole time," the cousin said Wednesday.

At the Sacramento news conference, U.S. Atty. McGregor Scott said two other Lodi men, Muslim clerics Mohamed Adil Khan and Shabir Ahmed, have been detained by the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement on suspicion of immigration violations. On Tuesday, the FBI searched both men's homes and offices, as well as the Hayat home in Lodi, confiscating videotapes, photos and computer equipment.

The immigration and customs office confirmed late Wednesday that agents had also detained Mohammad Hassan Adil on suspicion of an immigration violation. Adil is the 19-year-old son of Mohammad Adil Khan.

[aricbcool]

"A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. 'He was with his mom the whole time,' the cousin said Wednesday."

Momma's boy.

"Umer Hayat 'is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials,' Griffin said. 'This is painting a picture with a broad brush.'"

Is that all?

Nevermind that making false statements could include: "No really, I'm not involved in a WMD terrorist plot to blow up the world."

Sheesh.

[magician]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I don't care much for the FBI as an institution. I don't think they belong in the CT business nor do they serve any useful function in overseas assignments..

Unfortunately, I could not agree more.

The feebs are, in my personal opinion, the most hide-bound and archaic of all the federal agencies, utterly crippled by an insular culture that prizes conformity over all other traits.

We are a long way from Serpico, folks.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by magician

Unfortunately, I could not agree more.

The feebs are, in my personal opinion, the most hide-bound and archaic of all the federal agencies, utterly crippled by an insular culture that prizes conformity over all other traits.

Further evidence that the good magic man is terribly correct:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/...ves/004750.php

[casey]

Jimbo - I posted the full read here. There is just too much to highlight.....


AP: Terror Expertise Not Priority at FBI
By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

Sunday, June 19, 2005


(06-19) 11:36 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --


In sworn testimony that contrasts with their promises to the public, the FBI managers who crafted the post-Sept. 11 fight against terrorism say expertise about the Mideast or terrorism was not important in choosing the agents they promoted to top jobs.


And they still do not believe such experience is necessary today even as terrorist acts occur across the globe.


"A bombing case is a bombing case," said Dale Watson, the FBI's terrorism chief in the two years after Sept. 11, 2001. "A crime scene in a bank robbery case is the same as a crime scene, you know, across the board."


The FBI's current terror-fighting chief, Executive Assistant Director Gary Bald, said his first terrorism training came "on the job" when he moved to headquarters to oversee anti-terrorism strategy two years ago.


Asked about his grasp of Middle Eastern culture and history, Bald responded: "I wish that I had it. It would be nice."


"You need leadership. You don't need subject matter expertise," Bald testified in an ongoing FBI employment case. "It is certainly not what I look for in selecting an official for a position in a counterterrorism position."


In a development that has escaped public attention, FBI agent Bassem Youssef has questioned under oath many of the FBI's top leaders, including Director Robert Mueller and his predecessor, Louis Freeh, in an effort to show he was passed over for top terrorism jobs despite his expertise. Testimony from his lawsuit was recently sent to Congress.


Those who have held the bureau's top terrorism-fighting jobs since Sept. 11 often said in their testimony that they — and many they have promoted since — had no significant terrorism or Middle East experience. Some could not even explain the difference between Sunnis and Shiites, the two primary groups of Muslims.


"Probably the strongest leader I know in counterterrorism has no counterterrorism in his background," Bald insisted.


The hundreds of pages of testimony obtained by The Associated Press contrast with assurances Mueller repeatedly has given Congress that he was building a new FBI, from top to bottom, with experts able to stop terrorist attacks before they occurred, not solve them afterward.


"The FBI's shift toward terrorism prevention necessitates the building of a national level expertise and body of knowledge," Mueller told Congress a year after the suicide hijackings, as lawmakers approved billions of new dollars to fight terrorism.


Despite the testimony of its managers, the FBI said it has fundamentally reshaped itself to ensure the field agents on the ground who work the cases have the necessary skills, training and background for fighting terrorism. It noted it hired or redeployed more than 1,000 agents to counterterrorism and hired an additional 1,200 intelligence analysts and linguists.


"We fundamentally changed the criteria for hiring special agents and intelligence analysts to ensure that we get the critical skills, knowledge and experience we need to address today's threats," Assistant Director Cassandra Chandler told the AP.


"New agents receive personalized training from Muslim leaders. Street agents and managers in every field office have gotten to know the Middle Eastern and Muslim communities in their territories and regularly attend training sessions sponsored by community leaders," she said.


Daniel Byman, a national security expert who worked on both congressional and presidential investigations of terrorism and intelligence failures, reviewed the Youssef case for the court. Byman concluded the spurned agent is one of the government's most-skilled terrorism fighters and that the FBI overall remains weak in expertise on the Middle East, terrorism and intelligence liaison.


"Many of its officers — including those quite skilled in other aspects of the bureau's work, lack the skills to work with foreign governments or even their U.S. counterparts," Byman concluded.


"Knowing about counterterrorism would help a supervisor ensure a proper investigation and avoid missing important aspects of the case," he said.


Watson, who oversaw the first two years of transformation, testified he could not recall a single meeting in the aftermath of Sept. 11 in which FBI leaders discussed the type of skills or training needed for counterterrorism.


Youssef's lawyer, Steve Kohn, pressed further.


"What skill sets would they need to better identify, penetrate and/or prevent a future Osama bin Laden-style terrorist attack?" Kohn asked.


Watson answered: "They would need to understand the attorney general guidelines for counterterrorism and counterintelligence investigation."


"Anything else?" the lawyer inquired.


"No," Watson answered.


John Pikus, who held a key supervisory job during the reallocation of agents from traditional crime-fighting to terrorism, testified that the FBI did not create new screening standards to promote terrorism experts to its upper ranks.


"Strengthening up the criteria for selection," Pikus answered when asked where the FBI was deficient in its terrorism hiring.


Pat D'Amuro, one of the FBI's most-experienced senior managers in terrorism, testified that when he was brought to Washington to oversee the Sept. 11 investigation, eventually promoted to executive assistant director, he brought lots of agents with him from New York who had terrorism backgrounds.


But rather than conducting a systematic search for the bureau's most talented Middle Eastern and terrorism agents worldwide, D'Amuro testified, he brought to Washington the agents he personally knew had worked successfully on al-Qaida and other terrorism cases.


He said that in later promotions, Middle East and terrorism experience was helpful but not mandatory, noting the FBI also must deal with terrorism from domestic sources and the Irish Republican Army.


"It could be a benefit. When you look for managers, you're looking for people that can lead people, manage people, knows how to conduct an investigation, knows how to collect certain intelligence or information, you know," he testified.


When asked if he had any formal terrorism training that justified his appointment as the No. 3 FBI official, Bald said, "It would have been on-the-job in the counterterrorism division." Bald entered the counterterrorism division in 2003 after leading the FBI's Baltimore office during the Washington sniper case.


The assistant Bald brought in to run the division last year gave a similar account.


"It's a tremendous learning experience, the seat that I'm sitting in. You learn every single day about this," Deputy Assistant Director John Lewis testified.


When asked whether he, as the FBI's former counterterrorism chief, could describe the differences between Shiite and Sunni Muslims, Watson answered, "Not technically, no."


He also said that his assertion a few years ago that bin Laden had been killed — a declaration that conflicted with CIA assessments and fresh video evidence — was not based on fact. "It's my gut instinct," he answered.


Youssef, the agent suing the bureau, was credited with improving relations with Saudi Arabia during the late 1990s as bin Laden's threat grew and the bureau struggled to solve the case of the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing.


He received a special award from the intelligence community for meritorious work and was singled out by his managers for "continuous creativity and perseverance" in terrorism cases. Saudi officials said they regarded Youssef as the most skilled U.S. agent in conducting lie detector tests on Arabic-speaking suspects.


But after Sept. 11, Youssef repeatedly was passed over for top-level headquarters jobs in terrorism. Instead, he was offered same-rank positions in budgeting or exploiting intelligence from terrorism documents.


Freeh, the former FBI director who left that job three months before the terrorist attacks, testified that he believed Youssef should have gotten an important terror-fighting job in the post-Sept. 11 era


"I think, you know, given his experience, certainly his language, you know, domestically he would probably have a much more required role and be of greater help back at headquarters," Freeh said.


One FBI supervisor, just-retired Agent Paul Vick, testified that Youssef had the "many skills that were badly needed" after Sept. 11 and the FBI's failure to utilize him was "inappropriate and a waste of a very important human resource."

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by casey

Daniel Byman, a national security expert who worked on both congressional and presidential investigations of terrorism and intelligence failures, reviewed the Youssef case for the court. Byman concluded the spurned agent is one of the government's most-skilled terrorism fighters and that the FBI overall remains weak in expertise on the Middle East, terrorism and intelligence liaison.


"Many of its officers — including those quite skilled in other aspects of the bureau's work, lack the skills to work with foreign governments or even their U.S. counterparts," Byman concluded.


"Knowing about counterterrorism would help a supervisor ensure a proper investigation and avoid missing important aspects of the case," he said.

Byman is a very astute guy. He is my advisor at school and was recently promoted to the head of the program.

[casey]

"What skill sets would they need to better identify, penetrate and/or prevent a future Osama bin Laden-style terrorist attack?" Kohn asked.

Watson answered: "They would need to understand the attorney general guidelines for counterterrorism and counterintelligence investigation."

"Anything else?" the lawyer inquired.

"No," Watson answered.

This one exchange sums up all my years of dealing with this agency.

Indifferent arrogance abounds and the ability to see a 360 picture is non-existent. If this agencies thinking was any more in the box their buildings would be painted pale blue and have Tiffanys written on it.