Infantry in Action

[Cincinnatus]

I wasn't there, so I'm just repeating what I've been told, but "too aggressive" was the complaint or criticism offered against what Carl showed some Army units. I don't know which units, and I don't know if what he showed was any different from what he usually teaches though I suspect he just turned things up a couple of notches (IIRC, they [he and Clint and whomever else went down] did some work with a live blade to show how ineffective some techniques are.)

I personally don't understand this. In an LE environment, where subduing the suspect is the goal, people are innocent until proven guilty, and litigation is an overriding concern, it may be a valid criticism. However, in the context of the military I'd think these would all be secondary or tertiary concerns. Who cares if a Tango gets hurt? Is there some difference in killing a BG by shooting him vs. crushing his throat? I don't see it, myself.

Other, perhpas more valid, concerns are that it's difficult to train combatives without incurring injuries and that troops trained in combatives are more likely to seriously injure others in bar fights and other altercations than those trained in BJJ.

The first is certainly true, but can be largely mitigated with properly designed exercises, equipment, and supervision. (E.g., trainees practice striking each other's arms, rather than necks, to get sense of effectiveness of EOH blows, and use Spar Pros or other striking dummies to train targetting and chin jabs/ face smashes.)

The second, is also valid, but not something that IMHO should determine training priorites. People get hurt in bar fights...BFD. Warn troops that using combative techniques is using deadly force and punish those who do so cavalierly. Perhaps continue to train BJJ because of the benefits in physical conditioning, competitiveness and to provide a less lethal alternative.

My $.02

[NousDefionsDoc]

I wasn't there, so I'm just repeating what I've been told, but "too aggressive" was the complaint or criticism offered against what Carl showed some Army units.

Before or after 9-11?

[Kyobanim]

Getting hurt using unarmed combat techniques is part of the learning process. You can't properly apply a joint lock, bar or other dissabling technique without having it done to you and then doing it to a partner in practice. Going through the motions doesn't cut it. You need to learn what amount of force it takes to properly perform the technique, and what is needed for control of the opponent.

You need to hit and be hit, not killing blows but solid contact none the less, just to know what to expect. That's called conditioning.

Takedown and control techniques are something that the military would use in a capture situation. You don't necessarily want to kill everyone. If you're not going to capture them, a good solid jab to the throat will do nicely.

Something I tell the kids:

Hand to hand, no problem. All you'll get is bruises. It's good for you.
Hand to knife, be ready to get cut; possibly pretty bad. Runnings a good choice.
Hand to gun, hope your life insurance is paid up

[Cincinnatus]

Sneaky,

The comment predated 9-11. Carl's emphatically not PC, though and I think perhaps some officers still are and for that reason hesitate to bring him on to train their troops. Though perhaps Clint and Damian, young clean cut studs that they are, might be more palatable.

Kyobanim,

I agree completely about having to apply and feel techniques to learn them with a big caveat, the blows taught in combatives are potentially killing blows - ax hands (EOH) to the neck/ throat, chin jab/ tiger claw/ face smash, etc. Other than a Bullet Man suit, there's no way to safely train them on a real opponent. even a FIST suit falls woefully short. I got concussed by an elbow to the temple wearing a FIST helmet/ suit and we weren't even going that hard.

Training on Spar Pros, doing figure 8 routines to your partners arms, or investing in a Bullet Man suit is the way to go, IMHO.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

...doing figure 8 routines to your partners arms...

Cinn, could you explain this? Is this akin to the Hubud drill?

[Kyobanim]

Razor,

Square off with a partner, striking the arms and shoulders with whatever strike, i.e., ridgehand, bear claw, yoke or tiger strike, switching from left to right. It develops the 'feel' of the force needed to appropriately apply the technique and it conditions the recipient's arms and shoulders. This can also be done using blocking motions thereby conditioning forearms.

Cinci, It's still advantagious to use the 'killing blows' on a live partner. It develops accuracy, since you have a partner that can say 'that hurt' and it teaches control.

You're probably going to say that they need to practice more and you're right. Combatives are not something that should be taught to people who are not going to practice on a regular basis. It's like giving someone a loaded gun and no classes on shooting or gun safety. Part of learning the techniques is learning the control that goes with them.

[Cincinnatus]

Razor,

I'm a total bozo @ trad'l MAs so when I say that I think it's similar to hubud lubud it may not mean much. Kyobanim described it well.

I left Damian's to drive back to VT after drilling these and it was one LOOOONG drive. It hurt to lift my arms to hold the steering wheel so I'd hold w/ one hand as long as I could and then Ouch! switch to the other hand. Damn glad it was mostly highway.

Kyobanim,

No argument with what you've said, except that I think one of the beautiful things about combatives, especially if trained under stress, is how well the techniques are retained.

[Razor]

Ah, got it. Thanks guys.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

I personally don't understand this. In an LE environment, where subduing the suspect is the goal, people are innocent until proven guilty, and litigation is an overriding concern, it may be a valid criticism.

My mistake for not throwing in the cavaet.

Cavaet for LEO's when the chips are down, lethal force is justified, their life is in Emmient Jeopardy, they are being wolf packed, or other type of situation where their next few seconds maybe there last.

I/we are unable to show our guys the down and dirty, break neck, monkey stomp, stuff NDD is talking about.

When we really put the pressure on a lot of our guys revert to flailing or other less productive messures.

[Blueboy]

Great thread. Reaper---are they still teaching the LINE system in the pipeline? That seemed like pretty good stuff. Donvito's program was a little lockstep, but it emphasized the killing aspect of H2H (only two of his moves were non-killing blows) and the fact that when/if you come to blows with the enemy you will be wearing full kit and smoked to the point of exhaustion.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Good stuff for everyone.

I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

Kyo, I agree, providing the buddy doesn't drill both of 'em at the same time.

[Kyobanim]

Originally Posted by Blueboy

and the fact that when/if you come to blows with the enemy you will be wearing full kit and smoked to the point of exhaustion.

Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

[Blueboy]

That's the beauty of LINE training---it stresses that when you are in that dire situation, ANYTHING (e-tool, tree stump, rock, K-pot) is a weapon.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

Good question. With body armor, think of the mass you can get moving. Just run over them like a freight train and Bronco Stomp them as you run over them.

[Go For Broke]

Originally Posted by Blueboy

That's the beauty of LINE training---it stresses that when you are in that dire situation, ANYTHING (e-tool, tree stump, rock, K-pot) is a weapon.

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

To build on this, what Blueboy mentioned...Body Armor...and the kit that is on your body armor. If you are in a grappling situation (stand up or on the ground) you still have the plates, and possibly the mags in your ammo pouches. Smash / scrape his face into / down them. Not a lethal blow, but definitely provides you an edge. Your helmet (still on your head) is also much harder than his face.

Just my $0.02
V/R,