For All You Taser Fans...

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Thanks Smokin' Joe.
I would file a formal complaint but it is my belief based on observation that it would produce absolutely no positive result and make no difference except to label me a whiner and paint a target on my back.
They have also lost all my support in the community.

Some but not all agencies will take anonymous complaints.

Everyone's got a boss....just food for thought.

Yep, absolutely right Smokin Joe, gotta go for what is available. I just happened to look down and that was the only part showing, the rest of her was covered in uniforms. I would of much prefered to have hit her with the prongs from hell but she was within 1-2 feet of me when this all went down, it stinks because the range just wasn't there. We are averaging in our department alone one TASER'd subject a week so they are getting allot of use. Smokin Joe, when you went to be qualified for the TASER did they show you the Power Point presentation, and if so, did you see the "Big" Red one they used on the Bull? I guess it is for animals only. We also have had to shoot a person with two TASERS. The one wasn't working too well and the batteries were fresh. The subject attempted to pull one of the barbs out himself before he was hit again by another officer. That got his attention and definately made a believer out of him.

If you go to TASER class you will find that anyplace you can strike with a baton or PR-24 is also a target for the TASER with a few extra sights thrown in. Attempting "Lethal Force" under certain circumstances would be a shot to the head area and hoping for a barb hit to the eye and neck, although I doubt that even this would be a waist of time. If you have it out and things go south real quick then we have decided to go ahead and shoot the TASER, drop it and transition to the handgun. Hopefully, unless Murphy's Law intercedes, this can buy you time. This last part is FYI only.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Why?

That kind of crap that rookie pulled is bullshit and as a Sgt. I really want to know when my guys are acting like punks, because it gives everyone who wears a badge a very bad name. Officer's already have a bad name in society just because they enforce the law the last thing we need is to give society reasons to hate us.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? More power to you for understanding the problem and being willing to address it where you can. There's nothing worse than a guard dog with a taste for sheep. Nobody in their right mind wants to see what will happen if the sheep decide to solve the problem themselves. Peregrino

Bill, hang in there brother. You might tell one the next time you see him/her, of course in a very diplomatical way, that, that badge on their chest covers a very small portion of their chest and none of their a$$! Cops are suppose to be "people friendly" and that some of the ones that have been coming out of my department's academy for the last 8 years are nothing short of worthless. They yell and scream first instead of listening. They shoot demand respect of the community instead of earning it. They think lying all the time to people will get them to cooperate. Some will even go as far as making ("locker Room chatter") comments that they cannot wait until they drop somebody with their Glock.

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Yep, absolutely right Smokin Joe, gotta go for what is available. I just happened to look down and that was the only part showing, the rest of her was covered in uniforms. I would of much prefered to have hit her with the prongs from hell but she was within 1-2 feet of me when this all went down, it stinks because the range just wasn't there. We are averaging in our department alone one TASER'd subject a week so they are getting allot of use. Smokin Joe, when you went to be qualified for the TASER did they show you the Power Point presentation, and if so, did you see the "Big" Red one they used on the Bull? I guess it is for animals only. We also have had to shoot a person with two TASERS. The one wasn't working too well and the batteries were fresh. The subject attempted to pull one of the barbs out himself before he was hit again by another officer. That got his attention and definately made a believer out of him.

If you go to TASER class you will find that anyplace you can strike with a baton or PR-24 is also a target for the TASER with a few extra sights thrown in. Attempting "Lethal Force" under certain circumstances would be a shot to the head area and hoping for a barb hit to the eye and neck, although I doubt that even this would be a waist of time.

MAB32,

If you find yourself in the same type of situation in the future and you have the opportunity you might want to try. Making an intentionally bad shot with the probes. I.E. only sinking 1 probe (usually the top because that is what the laser is sighted to) into the individual then drive stuning the individual (with the cartridge still on) as far away from the entrance of the probe as you can reach. This will close the circuit and give you the same effect as if you actually shot the individual from a greater distance away and you will then achieve EMD. Just food for thought

When I went to the instructor school Hans Marrero advised us to only do drive stuns to large nerve endings or pressure points, but to shoot large muscle groups with the probes. Logic is this: The drive stun effects a smaller area, because of that the EMD will be in a smaller area so you need to create more pain, basically the Taser becomes a pain compliance tool when using a drive stun. Now by shooting large muscle groups i.e. sinking a probe at the top right shoulder and the bottom probe by the lower left hip region you will be effecting all of the muscles inbetween and achieve EMD and the individual will not be able to fight through it.

On high risk subjects we try and deploy 2 Tasers, one right after the other or simultainously. But we train to only engage a high risk subject with a Taser when you have Lethal cover....(as always situation dictates).

Originally Posted by MAB32

If you have it out and things go south real quick then we have decided to go ahead and shoot the TASER, drop it and transition to the handgun. Hopefully, unless Murphy's Law intercedes, this can buy you time. This last part is FYI only.

I'm not too sure about deploying the Taser then droping it and transitioning in this type of situation. We train to grab the Taser with your week hand pull it towards your center line while transitioning to your pistol. I understand why you would but I'm not big on droping things that can be picked up and used against me. I think that I would only do this IF it was an immedate shoot situation...then again I think I might not even waist that .25 of a second deploying the Taser and just drop it and go for my gun. I will have to kick this idea around for awhile it has merit and potentail. I'm going to train it and see if the potential of actually hitting someone while moving out weigh the scrafice in speed. Thanks for the tip.

I saw that bull video they used the MX-26 (4 times more powerful than the M26 or X26) that thing is crazy. Also when they hit the bull one of the probes stuck in the bulls nut-sack. Glad I didn't have to remove that probe. The week before I went through school Taser did a class for the Aussie SAS and showed that video the Aussie's were about ready to go to one of the sandboxes and specifically requested an MX-26 to deploy with. An individual I know who works for Taser made one "available" to them I have heard that someone has been hit with it; but it wasn't on this continent. Those things were designed for LARGE DANGEROUS GAME such as 600+ lbs Bears, Bulls, and Pissed off Moose.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? More power to you for understanding the problem and being willing to address it where you can. There's nothing worse than a guard dog with a taste for sheep. Nobody in their right mind wants to see what will happen if the sheep decide to solve the problem themselves. Peregrino

Thanks Peregrino,

I try to keep my little nitch in society in check, doesn't always work because mysteriously when I'm around my guys are little friggin angels. sneaky bastards they are.

[uboat509]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.

My question is, how obvious was it that she was pregnant? I know that some women can be eight months along and not show either because they didn't gain much weight or they were overweight to begin with. I am asking because if he knew or suspected that she was pregnant then he definately made a poor decision in this case. I am not a LEO but it seems to me that her refusal to sign this ticket makes her an obstinate b*tch, but not a threat to the officer, herself or the public. Given that fact was it really worth the potential risks to the fetus for a signiture on a ticket that she will have to pay reguardless? It takes suprisingly little to cause a placenta to tear off the uterine wall. This sounds, to me, like a battle of wills that escalated out of control for no good reason.

SFC W

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by MAB32

Bill, hang in there brother. You might tell one the next time you see him/her, of course in a very diplomatical way, that, that badge on their chest covers a very small portion of their chest and none of their a$$! Cops are suppose to be "people friendly" and that some of the ones that have been coming out of my department's academy for the last 8 years are nothing short of worthless. They yell and scream first instead of listening. They shoot demand respect of the community instead of earning it. They think lying all the time to people will get them to cooperate. Some will even go as far as making ("locker Room chatter") comments that they cannot wait until they drop somebody with their Glock.

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.

MAB32, Thanks.
You described our MTV Generation Baby Cops perfectly.

I agree with everything you said.

In case any of you think I hate cops, this couldn't be farther from the truth. I just realized all the ones I hang out with are "old guys". This includes my knifemaking student of nearly twenty years who was head of a SWAT, worked interagency counter domestic terrorism and just retired at rank of Chief from a city of over 100,000 people.

[jbour13]

Reading things like this re-enforces why when dealing with LEO's stay compliant and keep your hands on the wheel. That means even if knowing your right, to take your ass home, to keep it from being shot off. Let the judge decide if you want it to go that way.

I work around the DC Metro and I am amazed at some of the folks they give a weapon and badge to. I've been badmouthed by off duty officers more than I have been by the locals. It has happened on a few occasions and has been reported to those that matter.

These are the same personality types I've dealt with in the military that are after the long or short tabs to make themselves look cool, not to benefit the unit or other soldiers. I worked with a soldier (11B) in my last duty assignment that attended the US Army Sniper School and acted like he was gods gift to long guns. I asked what kind of tips he'd have for us non-trigger pullers on range estimation (I wanted to work on my prairie dog shooting skills) and anything else I could get out of him. His statement "I've got mine, go get it yourself!" Now first off, I'm an intel weenie and I know nothing of the schoolhouse doctrine at Benning, but.....I do know that the instructors of all military schools tell these troops "go to your units and spread the wealth of knowledge that you had the priveledge to obtain" Marksmanship is a soldier skill and not reserved for those that live the one shot one kill lifestyle.

I'll put it in the most simple of terms that CSM A. told me on my first camping trip with the BN "SGT B, you're a damn trigger puller until the BC needs to know when and where he can kill the enemy, now get in your hole and watch your sector of fire!"

[jasonglh]

Wow I can't believe that Taser suggests hitting the carotid. The carotid sinus is very sensitive I have seen patients go into cardiac arrest just from the physician doing a carotid massage. That seems incredibly dangerous especially in this circumstance. Can you imagine the publicity if she had gone into cardiac arrest over such an incident?

I have never been tasered or shocked but I have been pepper sprayed (once in the back of my ambulance ). Is pepper spray falling out of favor with LEO now?

[Sweetbriar]

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

In some jurisdictions, the ticket avoids being taken into custody and having to appear in front of a magistrate.

If you refused to sign it, you could be arrested, as she was, which would escalate into additional charges, such as resisting arrest, which it appears she did.

Due to its less-lethal and less permanent damage than hands on techniques, the TASER is lower on the Use of Force Continuum than soft hands in some departments.

Frankly, I would much rather be TASERed than OCed, but if the officer tells me to stand on my head at that moment, I will do my best to comply and seek redress later through other means. Noncompliance with an arresting officer is a poor course of action regardless.

TR

[uboat509]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I saw that bull video they used the MX-26 (4 times more powerful than the M26 or X26) that thing is crazy. Also when they hit the bull one of the probes stuck in the bulls nut-sack. Glad I didn't have to remove that probe. The week before I went through school Taser did a class for the Aussie SAS and showed that video the Aussie's were about ready to go to one of the sandboxes and specifically requested an MX-26 to deploy with. An individual I know who works for Taser made one "available" to them I have heard that someone has been hit with it; but it wasn't on this continent. Those things were designed for LARGE DANGEROUS GAME such as 600+ lbs Bears, Bulls, and Pissed off Moose.

When I went to Gryphon last year they told us that the MX-26 hits at something like 50 cylces a second whereas the M26 hits at 19 cycles a second and the X26 starts at 19 cycles a second and then reduces. The instructor knows the guy who does the product testing at Taser and he says that 25 cycles is like getting hit by a truck. He also said that 50 cycles will break bones in a human. I believe it. During the course they Tased two individuals, one by shooting him in the back at about 10 feet and the other by just taking one probe and putting it into the waistband of his pants and the other into to onw of his socks. All that either of them could do was swear loudly and repeatedly. After that they put 24 of us in a semi-circle and had us link arms. They put one probe in the waist band of the guys on either end and proceded to put all 24 of us on our faces with one Taser.

SFC W

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

Without threat of punishment (and the willingness to follow through with it), what incentive is there for someone that's noncompliant to follow directions? If you tell your child to clean their room, and they blow you off after repeated reminders and warnings of impending punishment, do you let it slide since its such a small matter, or do you use a form of punishment to encourage future compliance? This was an adult; why shouldn't she do what she was told, even if it was something trivial, as it was a reasonable request made by a law enforcement officer?

[uboat509]

Originally Posted by Razor

Without threat of punishment (and the willingness to follow through with it), what incentive is there for someone that's noncompliant to follow directions? If you tell you child to clean their room, and they blow you off after repeated reminders and warnings of impending punishment, do you let it slide since its such a small matter, or do you use a form of punishment to encourage future compliance? This was an adult; why shouldn't she do what she was told, even if it was something trivial, as it was a reasonable request made by a law enforcement officer?

I agree but the question is, did her infraction justify the use of the Taser, especially given her condition? She has already recieved the ticket for her infraction (speeding). She is going to have to pay the fine and get the points so why allow it escalate to the level that it did? I am not defending her actions at all, and if she were not pregnant and if this had not taken place in front of her child's school (and presumably her child), I would not have given this a second thought. But she was pregnant, which brings me back to my origional question, did he know or or suspect that she was pregnant before he tased her and then forced her to the ground? If he did then I believe that he made a bad decision.

SFC W